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Thread: How much Middle Eastern ancestry do Ashkenazim have?

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    How much Middle Eastern ancestry do Ashkenazim have?

    From what I've seen they are typically 60 percent Wana and 40 percent Euro. This is what I think. Is this correct?

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    Wikipedia says “Citing autosomal DNA studies, Nicholas Wade estimates that "Ashkenazic and Sephardic Jews have roughly 30 percent European ancestry, with most of the rest from the Middle East."” I don’t know how accurate this is though

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azbuzz View Post
    From what I've seen they are typically 60 percent Wana and 40 percent Euro. This is what I think. Is this correct?
    Does this help?

    Capture.PNG

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azbuzz View Post
    From what I've seen they are typically 60 percent Wana and 40 percent Euro. This is what I think. Is this correct?
    Using a broad definition of "WANA" (North African + Levantine + North West Asian + Mesopotamian + Iranian etc.) and of "European" (Greek + Italian + French-German + Slavic etc.) then the 60:40 ratio is probably pretty close to the average for Eastern Ashkenazi Jews. Western Ashkenazi Jews have about 10% less overall European ancestry than EAJs. But, a major problem with this model is that there is a line drawn in the middle of the Greco-Anatolian/Aegean cline that doesn't really exist in reality.
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitterfruit609 View Post
    Wikipedia says “Citing autosomal DNA studies, Nicholas Wade estimates that "Ashkenazic and Sephardic Jews have roughly 30 percent European ancestry, with most of the rest from the Middle East."” I don’t know how accurate this is though
    Yep. That's somewhat accurate

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    Quote Originally Posted by thejkhan View Post
    Does this help?

    Capture.PNG
    Not that much haha. Seems to vary based on the answers I've got

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    Quote Originally Posted by leorcooper19 View Post
    Using a broad definition of "WANA" (North African + Levantine + North West Asian + Mesopotamian + Iranian etc.) and of "European" (Greek + Italian + French-German + Slavic etc.) then the 60:40 ratio is probably pretty close to the average for Eastern Ashkenazi Jews. Western Ashkenazi Jews have about 10% less overall European ancestry than EAJs. But, a major problem with this model is that there is a line drawn in the middle of the Greco-Anatolian/Aegean cline that doesn't really exist in reality.
    Ah ok. I didn't know Western and Eastern Ashkenazim varied. I know Eastern Ashkenazim would have some Eastern European, but what about Western ones? Are they only South Euro+MENA?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azbuzz View Post
    Ah ok. I didn't know Western and Eastern Ashkenazim varied. I know Eastern Ashkenazim would have some Eastern European, but what about Western ones? Are they only South Euro+MENA?
    Western Ashkenazi Jews seem to have some small amount of West Euro, but in context with other Western Jews, WAJs mostly form a cline between Sephardim and EAJs. So, in that sense, what makes them differ from Sephardim is primarily differing degrees of Eastern European/Slavic ancestry, in addition to the base ~5% West Euro ancestry common to all Ashkenazim.

    see PCA: https://ibb.co/1LLBkDF
    Last edited by leorcooper19; 05-22-2021 at 12:37 AM. Reason: added PCA
     
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    How MENA do you consider Romaniote Jews and Cypriots to be? If about 70% or more than you could say with the model I shared below Ashkenazi Jews are over 50% MENA.

    Western Jews with Romaniote proxy.png

    The Aegean DNA of Cypriots and Romaniotes is probably both Greek and Anatolian going off below. As Lerocooper said above, it's essentially up for grabs what we want to consider is 'European' or not.

    Cypriot VS Romaniote MENA Euro ratio.JPG

    Quote Originally Posted by leorcooper19 View Post
    Western Ashkenazi Jews seem to have some small amount of West Euro
    I'm open to believe MAJ, ESJs and ITJs may have very minor to trace amounts too.
    Last edited by Seabass; 05-22-2021 at 05:35 AM.

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    I have seen only one persons autosomal data first-hand IRL, which is difficult to draw any wide conclusions from, however I think that the primary obstacle to answering this interesting question accurately is that Italian / Rhine Valley "Ashkenazics" were not (historically) the same population autsomally as Eastern / Steppe "Ashkenazics".

    Creating an artificial 'lump-Ashkenazic' category throws bad data, from what I have seen. The Caucasus / Steppe population needs to be moved into a separate category, or you will over-assign Levantine origin - Also, studies that attempt to compare existing modern populations with an artificial autosomal composite, throw bad data, whereas comparing modern populations to ancient samples yields accurate data.

    "a principle component analysis (PCA), the ancient Levantines clustered predominantly with modern-day Palestinians and Bedouins and marginally overlapped with Arabian Jews, whereas AJs clustered away from Levantine individuals and adjacent to Neolithic Anatolians and Late Neolithic and Bronze Age Europeans."
    This conclusion is anecdotally reinforced by what is probably good measurement offered by a Rabbinical lineage study that was created and assisted within the Rabbincal community, that tested 13 major Rabbinical lines -

    Five (5) of these are either certainly not of Levantine population origin, or highly unlikely to be, given that they are most common ancestries in Steppe / Caucasus peoples, Eight (8) of these are certainly Hg that can commonly be found among Levantine peoples, but most of which can also be found among Iranic, Turkic, Kurdish peoples.

    One of these lineages is interesting because it is V88 originating from (then) Muslim-controlled Spain, that later moves to a location in what is today the Ukraine. This makes it very likely that the father of this line is most likely Moorish or a Spaniard of Moorish paternal descent, that introgressed this major Rabbinical line.

    The best assessment would be a medieval DNA assessment between Steppe samples and Italic Spaniard samples that predate the Reconquista, which I am pretty certain are going to have either no, or only minor, relatedness.
    Last edited by Unk Kadath; 09-02-2021 at 09:05 PM. Reason: bad formatting

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