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Thread: How much Middle Eastern ancestry do Ashkenazim have?

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillWater View Post
    You're switching the rules again. I didn't say it was certain. You began to talk about odds and the odds are it's Judean.
    And what are you basing those odds on? It's a 3700 year old lineage that includes only Europeans. It's a subclade of a 6200 year old lineage that includes another deeply divergent Italian, two Turks, an Armenian, an Iraqi, an Iranian and a bunch of Saudis, with all the Saudis belonging to a subclade with TMRCA of 800 ybp, downstream from a more basal Iraqi. I'm not seeing a strong connection to the Levant. I'm not saying it's not possible, but I'm baffled by the idea of the high odds of this being Judean.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woozler View Post
    At this point, I'm relying exclusively on YFull. And I'm seeing lots of Europeans (with some Turks and Armenians and even an occasional Chinese) on the J2 clades to which the AJ subclades belong. Remarkably few Levantines, though it could be due to undertesting.
    There's no shortage of Jewish J2 clades for which a Levantine origin is quite obvious (Z42942, PF4888, FGC62187, Y36257, to name but a few).

    J-M92? Not something closer in time to L560? M92's TMRCA is 8200 ybp. I think that's around 2000-3000 years before there was any noticeable presence of any J2's in the Levant, to say nothing of any Canaanite vowel shifts. I seriously do not know what to make of your argument. Just because a certain subclade (formed 6200 ybp, TMRCA 3700 ybp, only Europeans so far: 1 Italian and an AJ subclade) is close in time to a vowel shift somewhere where it was not attested (yet) at such a deep level, you claim that as proof that this entire subclade is Levantine? J-SK1342, a subclade of M92 has the same MRCA of 3700 ybp, so is J-BY87008 and some others. Are all of them Levantine because they're close in time to the Canaanite vowel shift? Or perhaps language changes cannot really be tied to non-dominant subclades in any population?
    While the resolution on those samples did not go downstream below M92, I would argue that the presence of several Jewish branches under M92 as well as the overall phylogeny of Y20051 (which is solidly SW Asian in terms of branching and distribution), makes a Levantine origin a foregone conclusion for most of the Jewish branches and L560 in particular. Another parallel one could make is how Y20051's MRCA estimates go back to the period of Common Semitic speech (and in this sense it is similar to J-Z1853). It really is only a matter of time before L560 does make an appearance in a MLBA Canaanite context.

    Alluding to that Ragusan sample using a vague "European" label won't cut it, you need to be more precise: What's the alternative here, exactly? Which "European" BA horizon is bound to harbour L560? Or in simpler terms, why do you systematically insist on the least parsimonious option?
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 09-14-2021 at 11:29 PM.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  4. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    There's no shortage of Jewish J2 clades for which a Levantine origin is quite obvious (Z42942, PF4888, FGC62187, Y36257, to name but a few).
    Z42942 - Middle Eastern origin likely, Levantine origin by no means "obvious". With only Qataris, Iraqis and Saudis (with thousands of years between the branches) the Jewish branch may as well be of a later Babylonian origin.

    PF4888 - um.. it's a 9000 year old clade. There are at least two unrelated Jewish subclades on it.
    The AJ subclade J-AM00119 (tmrca 950 ybp) is downstream from a basal Portuguese (tmrca 6800 ybp!), two deeply divergent brother clades (tmrca 7400 ybp!) include a Spaniard and a Swede. Seems like the Jewish subclade belongs to a clade with a deep-rooted Neolithic European presence.

    The Jewish subclade J-FGC4975 (tmrca 2200 ybp) comes from J-PF5366 (tmrca 7500 ybp) which also contains an almost basal Hungarian (tmrca 7100), an almost basal Swede (7100), and an Armenian and a Spaniard in a younger clade. Looks like PF5366 might also have a pretty ancient, likely Neolithic presence in Europe: the oldest and the most divergent branches are European.

    FGC62187 - I'm not sure who is Jewish there.

    Y36257 - yeah, that's the one with the closest being a Syrian. The only 1 out of the 6 Jewish Y-DNA clades on that site I mentioned that is quite likely to be Levantine.
    Alluding to that Ragusan sample using a vague "European" label won't cut it, you need to be more precise: What's the alternative here, exactly? Which "European" BA horizon is bound to harbour L560? Or in simpler terms, why do you systematically insist on the least parsimonious option?
    Actually, I insist on the most parsimonious option: to stop at the Ragusan. Speculating about the origins of the Ragusan (and the AJ subclade) when there is a several-thousand-year gap between L560 and its brother clades (none of which are in the Levant, btw, you need to go several thousand years deeper than just several thousand years) is not something I would call parsimonious.

  5. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woozler View Post
    PF4888 - um.. it's a 9000 year old clade. There are at least two unrelated Jewish subclades on it. The AJ subclade J-AM00119 (tmrca 950 ybp) is downstream from a basal Portuguese (tmrca 6800 ybp!), two deeply divergent brother clades (tmrca 7400 ybp!) include a Spaniard and a Swede. Seems like the Jewish subclade belongs to a clade with a deep-rooted Neolithic European presence.

    The Jewish subclade J-FGC4975 (tmrca 2200 ybp) comes from J-PF5366 (tmrca 7500 ybp) which also contains an almost basal Hungarian (tmrca 7100), an almost basal Swede (7100), and an Armenian and a Spaniard in a younger clade. Looks like PF5366 might also have a pretty ancient, likely Neolithic presence in Europe: the oldest and the most divergent branches are European.
    So the second most common lineage among Jewish priests is going to be of Neolithic European origin, duly noted. I'll be sure to remember that when future studies shed light on PF4888's origins, needless to say this has to be one of the stealthiest Neolithic markers in Europe considering how it has so far failed to show up in any remains from any given Neolithic site in Europe.

    Actually, I insist on the most parsimonious option: to stop at the Ragusan. Speculating about the origins of the Ragusan (and the AJ subclade) when there is a several-thousand-year gap between L560 and its brother clades (none of which are in the Levant, btw, you need to go several thousand years deeper than just several thousand years) is not something I would call parsimonious.
    Without taking the archeogenetic evidence into account, your approach is mere conjecture, I hope I don't need to explain how basing your contention on a single modern sample while conveniently ignoring the ancient data is a form of special-pleading. The methodology is flawed, to say the least. After all, your assumption is that J2-M410 was a major Neolithic marker in Europe despite the critical mass of ancient DNA evidence that makes this well-nigh obsolete now.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  7. #85
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    I have moved a series of pages from another thread on Jewish G25 coordinates to this one since they seem to constitute a major deviation from the original theme of that other thread and - although the direction of the tangent is not entirely clear - would be more at home in this thread.

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  9. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    So the second most common lineage among Jewish priests is going to be of Neolithic European origin, duly noted.
    Not a strong argument, considering that half the Ashkenazi Levites are Indo-Aryans, so to speak, with sibling branches including Iranians, an Iraqi, an Armenian, an Azerbaijani and a couple of Spaniards. There is a good chance the Levite R1a is from a converted Persian or Babylonian, but it could very well be from somewhere else, including Europe, although it's unlikely to be from the Levant: no close matches anywhere near that region.

    I'll be sure to remember that when future studies shed light on PF4888's origins, needless to say this has to be one of the stealthiest Neolithic markers in Europe considering how it has so far failed to show up in any remains from any given Neolithic site in Europe.
    I think we have only several Neolithic samples from Italy, with several J2's. Neolithic Europe north of the Mediterranean had very few J2's.

    Without taking the archeogenetic evidence into account, your approach is mere conjecture, I hope I don't need to explain how basing your contention on a single modern sample while conveniently ignoring the ancient data is a form of special-pleading.
    I hope I don't need to explain that you're doing EXACTLY the same thing you're accusing me of doing. We're both speculating on the origin of AJ subclades based on extremely limited data. We're both "special pleading". But when it comes to AJ's J2 subclades, I seem to have a slightly stronger position, if only based on a few YFull samples and deep European sibling lineages.

    The methodology is flawed, to say the least. After all, your assumption is that J2-M410 was a major Neolithic marker in Europe despite the critical mass of ancient DNA evidence that makes this well-nigh obsolete now.
    J2-M410 seems to have been a major Neolithic marker in Italy (Antonio, 2019)

  10. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woozler View Post
    Not a strong argument, considering that half the Ashkenazi Levites are Indo-Aryans, so to speak, with sibling branches including Iranians, an Iraqi, an Armenian, an Azerbaijani and a couple of Spaniards. There is a good chance the Levite R1a is from a converted Persian or Babylonian, but it could very well be from somewhere else, including Europe, although it's unlikely to be from the Levant: no close matches anywhere near that region.
    Iraq borders the Levant (and by some definitions is part of the extended Levant). And in what version of history would a European convert end up with sibling branches in Iran, Iraq, Armenia, and Azerbaijan?

    I'm genuinely curious, are you Jewish?

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  12. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonahst View Post
    Iraq borders the Levant (and by some definitions is part of the extended Levant). And in what version of history would a European convert end up with sibling branches in Iran, Iraq, Armenia, and Azerbaijan?
    The sibling branches are 2800 years apart and are fairly widely dispersed. So it could've come from anywhere, but until they find a relative of the Levite R1a in Lebanon/Syria/Palestine in the same subclade (the Levite subclade is only 1200 years old), I will doubt its Levantine origin.
    I'm genuinely curious, are you Jewish?
    I'm partially (patrilineally) EAJ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woozler View Post
    The sibling branches are 2800 years apart and are fairly widely dispersed. So it could've come from anywhere, but until they find a relative of the Levite R1a in Lebanon/Syria/Palestine in the same subclade (the Levite subclade is only 1200 years old), I will doubt its Levantine origin.
    Right, but the likelihood of it being European is far lower than it being Mesopotamian/Persian, whether or not it's Levantine. And there are certain regions (that do in fact border the Levant) where it's far more likely to have entered the Jewish genepool than "anywhere." And why would we find a modern Levantine non-Jew in a 1200-year-old Jewish subclade? That makes no sense.

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    Admittedly, I've only skimmed this debate, but it seems like your logic is that if there are any nearby subclades present among Europeans, the Ashkenazi subclade is most likely of European origin. This conveniently ignores the very historically-prevalent phenomenon of Jewish apostates, who were far more numerous and widespread than converts to Judaism.
    Last edited by jonahst; 09-15-2021 at 03:51 PM.

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