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Thread: How much Middle Eastern ancestry do Ashkenazim have?

  1. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levantine_Viking View Post
    Greek for me doesn't always mean aegeon. I say Greek because Greeks have alot of anatolian bronze age ancestry and they brought that ancestry with their expansions.
    Ok i see, you want to say probably that in a general point of view to simplify, not from a specific genetic point of view etc.
    Last edited by Aben Aboo; 09-17-2022 at 03:23 AM.
    Average modern Pops

    Distance: 1.8718% / 0.01871759
    22.2 French_South
    19.8 French_Brittany
    19.6 Mozabite
    12.0 French_Seine-Maritime
    11.8 Polish_Kashubian
    8.0 Sicilian_East
    6.6 Sardinian

    + Basque:
    Distance: 1.6764% / 0.01676430
    34.0 Basque_French
    19.0 Mozabite
    14.0 French_Brittany
    14.0 Sicilian_East
    12.6 Polish_Kashubian
    6.4 French_Seine-Maritime

  2. #382
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    Guanche:gun008
    Y-DNA (P)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levantine_Viking View Post
    I understand this is your philosophy on levantine = middle Eastern. My question is what do you consider to be bronze age anatolians? West asian? And mesopotamian also, West asian of course.

    On the topic of ashkenazi jews,
    these labels, "middle eastern", "levantine", "west asian", didnt exist x amount of years ago and mean nothing in genetics. either way it is irrelevant and doesn't answer the question of the thread, especially since ashkenazi can be modelled without it

    Target: Ashkenazi_Jew
    Distance: 0.7206% / 0.00720599
    46.2 GRC_Logkas_MBA
    35.0 Levant_BA
    7.6 Slavic
    6.2 Guanche
    3.8 KAZ_Turk
    1.2 IRN_Hasanlu_MBA
    Distance to: abceff
    0.01873718 23.40% Tunisian_Jew:TunisianJew1511 + 76.60% Moroccan:MCA16

    Distance to: abceff
    0.01784581 32.00% Tunisian_Jew + 68.00% Gourara_Timimoun

  3. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abceff View Post
    these labels, "middle eastern", "levantine", "west asian", didnt exist x amount of years ago and mean nothing in genetics. either way it is irrelevant and doesn't answer the question of the thread, especially since ashkenazi can be modelled without it

    Target: Ashkenazi_Jew
    Distance: 0.7206% / 0.00720599
    46.2 GRC_Logkas_MBA
    35.0 Levant_BA
    7.6 Slavic
    6.2 Guanche
    3.8 KAZ_Turk
    1.2 IRN_Hasanlu_MBA
    Target: Mom_scaled
    Distance: 1.9021% / 0.01902132
    47.0 GRC_Logkas_MBA
    35.0 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
    9.8 Canary_Islands_Guanche
    4.2 KAZ_Turk
    4.0 SWE_IA

    Target: Uncle_scaled
    Distance: 2.1911% / 0.02191119
    45.8 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
    43.8 GRC_Logkas_MBA
    5.6 KAZ_Turk
    4.8 Canary_Islands_Guanche


    Target: Hezi_scaled
    Distance: 1.7680% / 0.01767966
    38.8 Germanic
    33.2 GRC_Logkas_MBA
    16.8 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
    5.2 Canary_Islands_Guanche
    3.4 England_IA_EarlyMedieval
    2.6 SWE_IA

    Target: Hezi_scaled
    Distance: 1.7436% / 0.01743615
    29.6 GRC_Logkas_MBA
    29.2 Germanic
    17.8 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
    10.2 FRA_Champagne_IA2
    5.2 SWE_IA
    4.8 Canary_Islands_Guanche
    3.2 England_IA_EarlyMedieval
    Last edited by Levantine_Viking; 09-17-2022 at 05:03 AM.

  4. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abceff View Post
    these labels, "middle eastern", "levantine", "west asian", didnt exist x amount of years ago and mean nothing in genetics. either way it is irrelevant and doesn't answer the question of the thread, especially since ashkenazi can be modelled without it

    Target: Ashkenazi_Jew
    Distance: 0.7206% / 0.00720599
    46.2 GRC_Logkas_MBA
    35.0 Levant_BA
    7.6 Slavic
    6.2 Guanche
    3.8 KAZ_Turk
    1.2 IRN_Hasanlu_MBA
    maternal is k2a2a1 - found only in ashkenazi jews but sibling branch is k2a2a2 - found only in UAE and 1 saudi. ashkenazi branch 800 yrs old arabian branch 1400 years old.

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  6. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aben Aboo View Post
    For Anatolians BA/Aegans PCA (not from last study):

    Attachment 51241
    Is this from 'The Genetic Origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans'?
    Last edited by Andrewid; 09-20-2022 at 01:08 AM.

  7. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewid View Post
    Is this from 'The Genetic Origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans'?
    Yes it is from Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans
    Average modern Pops

    Distance: 1.8718% / 0.01871759
    22.2 French_South
    19.8 French_Brittany
    19.6 Mozabite
    12.0 French_Seine-Maritime
    11.8 Polish_Kashubian
    8.0 Sicilian_East
    6.6 Sardinian

    + Basque:
    Distance: 1.6764% / 0.01676430
    34.0 Basque_French
    19.0 Mozabite
    14.0 French_Brittany
    14.0 Sicilian_East
    12.6 Polish_Kashubian
    6.4 French_Seine-Maritime

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  9. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levantine_Viking View Post
    u consider anatolian hellenistic to be levantine? i thought it was more likely anatolian BA + levantine + greek
    Sorry I was refering to modern Anatolian in the context of West Asian Vs Levantine that was all.

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  11. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by DudeTheDud View Post
    Two of the samples from Erfurt appear to be some kind of proto-Western Jews, one from (Southern?) Italy and another from maybe Spain or Provence. The Italian-like one can be modelled well as about 60-65% Medieval South Italian, 25-30% West Anatolian and 10-15% Levantine. Other models give 20-30% Levantine. The Spanish/Provencal one I haven't modelled yet.

    More details here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....551#post873551
    Makes sense, that area (West Anatolia) was once called 'Askenaz'.

  12. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freb View Post
    Makes sense, that area (West Anatolia) was once called 'Askenaz'.
    it is not that simple at all:

    the article also explains a different hypothesis to avoid overlap with southern italy

    "To study the genetic composition of EAJ from a population genetics perspective, we simulated demographic scenarios with or without substructure. We then tested the similarity between summary statistics of the real Erfurt data and either simulated scenario. In the first scenario, there was a single admixture event between Middle Eastern (50%), Southern European (35%), and Eastern European (15%) sources (based on the model of ref. [52]) that has happened five generations prior to sampling (Methods Figure 2)."

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1....491805v1.full

  13. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freb View Post
    Makes sense, that area (West Anatolia) was once called 'Askenaz'.
    so no - south italy was just one of their models, the one I just mentioned was the other. and much more closer to reality than just saying |25-30 percent west anatolian / 10-15 levantine.

    Both southern italy and west anatolia have levantine admixture, so if we want to break it down properly, I would suggest using "Middle Eastern (50%), Southern European (35%), and Eastern European (15%) sources"
    as to where this admixture came - it is more likely related to this:

    Target: Mom_scaled
    Distance: 1.8436% / 0.01843552
    41.4 Greek_and_Balkan
    29.0 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
    9.2 Anatolian_Hellenistic
    9.2 North_Africa
    6.0 Baltic
    5.2 CentralAsia

    Target: Mom_Brother
    Distance: 1.8898% / 0.01889771
    34.8 Anatolian_Hellenistic
    26.0 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
    20.6 Greek_and_Balkan
    8.0 Slavic
    5.4 North_Africa
    4.8 CentralAsia
    0.4 CHN_Chuanyun_Historic

    Target: Anatolian_Hellenistic:Anatolia_West_Hellenistic-to-Byzantine
    Distance: 0.8319% / 0.00831940
    62.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
    16.8 Greek_and_Balkan
    13.8 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
    6.2 Slavic
    0.4 Baltic

    Now, without anatolian hellenistic:

    Target: Mom_scaled
    Distance: 1.8303% / 0.01830258
    41.2 Greek_and_Balkan
    28.2 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
    9.4 North_Africa
    9.2 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
    6.8 Baltic
    5.2 CentralAsia


    Target: Mom_Brother
    Distance: 1.8923% / 0.01892350
    29.8 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
    24.4 Greek_and_Balkan
    23.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
    11.4 Slavic
    5.6 North_Africa
    4.6 CentralAsia
    0.4 CHN_Chuanyun_Historic

    Components:
    mom - 28.2 Levantine
    - 9.4 North_Africa
    - 9.2 West Asian (anatolian BA)

    Her brother - 29.8 levantine
    - 23.8 west asian (anatolian BA )
    - 5.6 north africa

    WITHOUT anatolian BA

    Target: Mom_scaled
    Distance: 1.8508% / 0.01850753
    47.0 Greek_and_Balkan
    33.8 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
    8.6 North_Africa
    5.4 Baltic
    5.2 CentralAsia

    Target: Mom_Brother
    Distance: 2.0428% / 0.02042805
    44.2 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
    41.8 Greek_and_Balkan
    5.8 CentralAsia
    4.6 Slavic
    3.6 North_Africa

    So in fact - ashkenazi jews can get around around 40-60 percent (mena - north africa and the middle east) with good distance, and we can assume some of this levantine came from both the caananites and the hellenized greeks that had northern levantine ancestry to a small degree.
    Last edited by Levantine_Viking; 09-26-2022 at 04:16 AM.

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