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Thread: Questions about Amazigh

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    Questions about Amazigh

    Did the Amazigh/Berbers migrate out of Africa at one time and then migrate back in? I heard that was a theory or even supported by genetics. Is this true? It would make sense why they are so Mediterranean looking because if they never left Africa wouldn’t they be darker skinned, or is the North African climate hospitable for lighter skinned and narrow nosed people?

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    Yes, they represent the backmigration of ancient West Eurasians into Africa. This is also true for the West Eurasian segment of Horners.

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    are you sure that Ibero-maurusian came from out Africa ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Itrane2000 View Post
    are you sure that Ibero-maurusian came from out Africa ?
    The majority of its ancestry is represented by a back to Africa wave and the rest is indigenous SSA like.

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    And when did that "back to Africa" take place, according to what you say?

    This component could not be due to the genetic exchange between both shores of the Mediterranean or to the evolution of an original population of the continent that diverged from the rest of Africans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    Yes, they represent the backmigration of ancient West Eurasians into Africa. This is also true for the West Eurasian segment of Horners.
    Thats interesting. So where would they have stayed, coasts of Spain and Portugal? Or is it a migration from west Eurasia back to North Africa? And why would they go back in such numbers?
    Last edited by Luso; 06-23-2021 at 03:00 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mokordo View Post
    And when did that "back to Africa" take place, according to what you say?

    This component could not be due to the genetic exchange between both shores of the Mediterranean or to the evolution of an original population of the continent that diverged from the rest of Africans?
    The Iberomaurusians were very ancient much older than the Neolithic. About 63% of its ancestry is Natufian(aka West Eurasian)like and the rest was SSA like. Analogues can be drawn to the Horners of NE Africa.
    Quote Originally Posted by Luso View Post
    Thats interesting. So where would they have stayed, coasts of Spain and Portugal? Or is it a migration from west Eurasia back to North Africa? And why would they go back in such numbers?
    The migration came from the east from the Levant. As to why they moved, it’s hard to say but we know that there were periodic green Sahara periods where the desert became savannah and hence inhabitable. That triggered at least some migrations-and there were multiple by the way. The Iberomaurusian/Taforalt culture is only the most ancient layer of ancestry in North Africans. Further migration happened after the advent of farming as there is Neolithic Levantine and Anatolian ancestry present among the Berbers of the region.
    Last edited by Cynic; 06-23-2021 at 06:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    The Iberomaurusians were very ancient much older than the Neolithic. About 63% of its ancestry is Natufian(aka West Eurasian)like and the rest was SSA like. Analogues can be drawn to the Horners of NE Africa.
    To my knowledge, Natufian = West Eurasia is the opposite of what's true. Natufians were just the most northernly-spread of the so-called "Ancient North Africans", whose ancestry would have also peaked in, say, Old Kingdom Egypt, as well as presumably throughout North and East Africa. The correlation between ANA, Afro-Asiatic, and E-M35 is almost too good to pass up!

    Though, I'm not as well-read on this as I'd like to be. Feel free to school me if I'm missing some critical information.
     
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    Iberomaurusians formed in situ but they were indeed partially Eurasian (if not primarily), not just some kind of African population that was closer to the Out-of-Africa population. Their U6 mtdna is a very derived Eurasian mtdna, there is no controversy about it.
    Since the samples we have are very homogenous, it's likely their population formed much earlier, probably aligning with the archeological evidence and age estimates of the Iberomaurusian culture (~20000 years BCE). And I don't think the Eurasian is simply Natufian-like, or Dzudzuana-like (still waiting for Lazaridis to publish the damned paper) there might be some connections with some Paleolithic European populations. Natufians might have had much more in common with contemporary Egyptian populations, maybe even on a cline with them, not with Taforalt in particular.
    The African part of Iberomaurusians - ANA - is even less known, as Paleolithic Africa is a complete desert in paleogenomics. To me, it looks like it behaves very similarly to modern "SSA", maybe with less deep ancestry. But I could be wrong.

    Anyway, yes, Berbers are predominantly of back-to-Africa stock, from the partial Iberomaurusian continuity (there is no such direct Paleolithic continuity in most of Europe for comparison), to the various Holocene migrations and the Neolithic revolution, all the way down to as recently as Bronze Age European/Steppes-rich migrations to North Africa.
    Modern Berbers probably formed during the Bronze Age or at the onset of the Iron Age, as the final bottleneck and reexpansion (the last major of probably multiple ones, mostly related to climate and the drying of the Sahara) reshaped the autosomal, uniparental (chiefly the domination of E-M183) and linguistic landscape (Berber languages/dialects are not very diverse compared to the closest group of similar age that Semitic is) of North Africa to the West of the Nile valley.
    Last edited by Ignis90; 06-23-2021 at 11:06 PM.
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    this is strange, because the closest population to Iberomaurusian (if we exclude other north africans) are Kenyan Pastoral and tanzanian.

    Distance to: MAR_Taforalt
    0.26547860 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N:I12534
    0.28698369 KEN_Early_Pastoral_N:I12533
    0.28824884 KEN_HyraxHill_2300BP:HYR002
    0.28900013 TZA_PN_o:I13978
    0.29079738 TZA_PN:I13977
    0.29109100 KEN_Pastoral_N:I8809
    0.29335352 TZA_PN:I13981
    0.29433481 TZA_PN:I13762
    0.29503603 KEN_Pastoral_N_o:I8759
    0.29562118 KEN_Pastoral_N_Elmenteitan:I8923
    0.29638085 KEN_Pastoral_N:I8804
    0.29758464 TZA_PN:I13980
    0.29991987 KEN_Pastoral_N:I8874
    0.30117075 KEN_Pastoral_N_Elmenteitan:I12398
    0.30219286 KEN_LuKENHill_3500BP:LUK001
    0.30285161 TZA_PN:I13979
    0.30443054 KEN_Pastoral_N_Elmenteitan:I8922
    0.30461901 KEN_Pastoral_N_Elmenteitan:I8805
    0.30522598 KEN_Pastoral_N:I8830
    0.30538444 KEN_Pastoral_N_Elmenteitan:I12394
    0.30554677 KEN_Pastoral_N:I8918
    0.30563365 KEN_Pastoral_N_Elmenteitan:I10719
    0.30679808 KEN_Pastoral_N:I8814
    0.30700609 KEN_Pastoral_N:I8919
    0.30754229 TZA_Luxmanda_3100BP:I3726

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