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Thread: Questions about Amazigh

  1. #21
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    I don't know if it might help but since we don't have genetic datas yet and if aterians were indeed these ANAs why not looking at what forensic anthropology tells us ? Based on it we see that they shared many physical similarities with IBM which lead anthropologists to believe these aterians might have participated in the ethnogenesis of IBM but they still show archaic traits and are more robust than IBM. According to their results they are in an intermediary position between the djebel irhoud people and mechta el arbi (so clearly not similar to modern SSAs). Their material culture was found as far as the lake Chad and the Red Sea.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cabaon View Post
    I don't know if it might help but since we don't have genetic datas yet and if aterians were indeed these ANAs why not looking at what forensic anthropology tells us ? Based on it we see that they shared many physical similarities with IBM which lead anthropologists to believe these aterians might have participated in the ethnogenesis of IBM but they still show archaic traits and are more robust than IBM. According to their results they are in an intermediary position between the djebel irhoud people and mechta el arbi (so clearly not similar to modern SSAs). Their material culture was found as far as the lake Chad and the Red Sea.
    Majority of Sub-Saharans today all carry ANA ancestry due to having direct connections to the Sahel.Modern populations like the Dinka & Yoruba are a mixture of many divergent ancient African ancestries including ANA.It's amazing to see how both the Dinka & Yoruba would carry more ANA then me but it's not surprising since majority of the ANA ancestry of Cushitic populations probably came from our Sahelian Sudanese-like ancestors with very little coming from NE Africans who were probably similar to the Natufians with perhaps some extra ANA.


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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    ANA can't be the same as SSA since IBM get huge distance at 33% distance from my memory when modeling them as Ust_Ishim (or WHG) + Dinka/Yoruba or Anatolian Pinarbarsi + Dinka/Yoruba.

    It doesn't make sense, you don't get anywhere this huge distance when you model any modern SSA/Eurasian admixed groups or individuals. Dinka for example is a perfect proxy for anyone with real SSA ancestry. I challenge modeling anyone from an Ethiopian, to a Puerto Rican to a Brazilian to a random mixed parentage SSA/European individual you will get reasonable distance below 5% , but not Iberomaurusians.

    ANA is not the same as modern SSA. It's either something African but closest to Eurasians (basically part of the Eurasian phylum itself) either Basal Eurasian itself.

    The world might not be just SSA vs Eurasian. If anything the modern world is wayy lesss diverse than it was back in the earlier Paleolithic as simple as this due to the expansions of Western Eurasians, East Asians over large areas and the homogeneization occurring as a result.
    And nobody in the field has yet be able to explain what Basal Eurasian is but something that is clear is that its already clearly closer to what is in Iberomaurusians than what is in Crown Eurasian and ANE. Might be a secondary OOA component at 80kya as proposed by a recent study.

    I've seen also PCA plot where Iran Neolithic samples show a clear shift towards Iberomaurusians (meaning that their Basal Eurasian shift vis a vis WHG/Vestonice and East Eurasian is expressing this way)

    Which paper proposed that it was a secondary (well primary if it occurred 80kya) OOA component?

    But you are right , nobody truly knows what Basal Eurasian is or even if it is real. Doesn't stop claims of ownership over it due to some people's racial agendas.

  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    ANA can't be the same as SSA since IBM get huge distance at 33% distance from my memory when modeling them as Ust_Ishim (or WHG) + Dinka/Yoruba or Anatolian Pinarbarsi + Dinka/Yoruba.

    It doesn't make sense, you don't get anywhere this huge distance when you model any modern SSA/Eurasian admixed groups or individuals. Dinka for example is a perfect proxy for anyone with real SSA ancestry. I challenge modeling anyone from an Ethiopian, to a Puerto Rican to a Brazilian to a random mixed parentage SSA/European individual you will get reasonable distance below 5% , but not Iberomaurusians.

    ANA is not the same as modern SSA. It's either something African but closest to Eurasians (basically part of the Eurasian phylum itself) either Basal Eurasian itself.

    The world might not be just SSA vs Eurasian. If anything the modern world is wayy lesss diverse than it was back in the earlier Paleolithic as simple as this due to the expansions of Western Eurasians, East Asians over large areas and the homogeneization occurring as a result.
    And nobody in the field has yet be able to explain what Basal Eurasian is but something that is clear is that its already clearly closer to what is in Iberomaurusians than what is in Crown Eurasian and ANE. Might be a secondary OOA component at 80kya as proposed by a recent study.

    I've seen also PCA plot where Iran Neolithic samples show a clear shift towards Iberomaurusians (meaning that their Basal Eurasian shift vis a vis WHG/Vestonice and East Eurasian is expressing this way)
    Ustishim shows a shift towards Iberomaurisians too I think, which is quite odd given his inferred ancestry.

    Of course, ANA is different than "SSA" but it could (imo) theoretically be a composite of "SSA" and Eurasian-related ancestry, maybe what Harvard lab calls "basal Eurasian"

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    The idea that the Iberomaurusian's African ancestry lack's SSA or is closer to Eurasians is honestly indefensible when using f4 ratios
    .
    A simple f4 ratio test using African populations with deep African ancestry and ancient Eurasians shows that they obviously have some very deep African ancestry.

    Code:
     result:   ZlatyKun      Biaka Iberomaurusian      Chimp  :   ZlatyKun      Biaka   UstIshim      Chimp     0.715233     0.013780     51.904   1044819
     result:   ZlatyKun      Mbuti Iberomaurusian      Chimp  :   ZlatyKun      Mbuti   
    UstIshim      Chimp     0.742605     0.013000     57.122   1052208
     result:   ZlatyKun Khomani_San Iberomaurusian      Chimp  :   ZlatyKun Khomani_San   UstIshim      Chimp     0.772046     0.012293     62.802   1047862
    
    
    
         
    
                                Populations for comparison 
    
    result:   ZlatyKun      Mbuti     Iran_N      Chimp  :   ZlatyKun      Mbuti   UstIshim      Chimp     0.983624     0.015327     64.174    999672
     result:   ZlatyKun      Mbuti   Natufian      Chimp  :   ZlatyKun      Mbuti   UstIshim      Chimp     0.933430     0.016891     55.263    698609
     result:   ZlatyKun      Mbuti Anatolia_N      Chimp  :   ZlatyKun      Mbuti   UstIshim      Chimp     0.975052     0.014353     67.933   1071781
     result:   ZlatyKun      Mbuti       Mota      Chimp  :   ZlatyKun      Mbuti   UstIshim      Chimp     0.325284     0.010170     31.985   1084674

    The F4 ratios using Africans with less deep ancestry.

    Code:
     result:   ZlatyKun     Yoruba     Iran_N      Chimp  :   ZlatyKun     Yoruba   UstIshim      Chimp     0.962453     0.020068     47.960    992911
     result:   ZlatyKun     Yoruba   Natufian      Chimp  :   ZlatyKun     Yoruba   UstIshim      Chimp     0.892012     0.021288     41.902    674315
     result:   ZlatyKun     Yoruba Anatolia_N      Chimp  :   ZlatyKun     Yoruba   UstIshim      Chimp     0.949469     0.018514     51.284   1069799
     result:   ZlatyKun     Yoruba Iberomaurusian      Chimp  :   ZlatyKun     Yoruba   UstIshim      Chimp     0.599547     0.015672     38.256   1049267
     result:   ZlatyKun     Yoruba       Mota      Chimp  :   ZlatyKun     Yoruba   UstIshim      Chimp     0.186157     0.013451     13.840   1083049
    
     result:   ZlatyKun      Dinka     Iran_N      Chimp  :   ZlatyKun      Dinka   UstIshim      Chimp     0.941289     0.023943     39.314   1037863
     result:   ZlatyKun      Dinka   Natufian      Chimp  :   ZlatyKun      Dinka   UstIshim      Chimp     0.858056     0.026701     32.135    841699
     result:   ZlatyKun      Dinka Anatolia_N      Chimp  :   ZlatyKun      Dinka   UstIshim      Chimp     0.929612     0.022218     41.840   1084651
     result:   ZlatyKun      Dinka Iberomaurusian      Chimp  :   ZlatyKun      Dinka   UstIshim      Chimp     0.564292     0.019144     29.475   1072139
     result:   ZlatyKun      Dinka       Mota      Chimp  :   ZlatyKun      Dinka   UstIshim      Chimp     0.061354     0.017596      3.487   1095329
    
    
     result:   ZlatyKun       Mota     Iran_N      Chimp  :   ZlatyKun       Mota   UstIshim      Chimp     0.968860     0.024690     39.241   1060985
     result:   ZlatyKun       Mota   Natufian      Chimp  :   ZlatyKun       Mota   UstIshim      Chimp     0.898261     0.026027     34.513    924385
     result:   ZlatyKun       Mota Anatolia_N      Chimp  :   ZlatyKun       Mota   UstIshim      Chimp     0.955764     0.022820     41.883   1093150
     result:   ZlatyKun       Mota Iberomaurusian      Chimp  :   ZlatyKun       Mota   UstIshim      Chimp     0.619930     0.019288     32.140   1085097

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  9. #26
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    These F4 ratios aren't showing anything more than Iberomaurusians having deeper ancestry than ancient crown Eurasians (Zlaty_Kun, Ust_Ishim) which is something we already know.
    It doesn't show anything else.
    Last edited by SilkRoad; 06-30-2021 at 08:52 AM.

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  11. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Those F4 ratios aren't showing anything more than Iberomaurusians having deeper ancestry than ancient Eurasians (Zlaty Kun, Ust_Ishim) which is something we already know. It doesn't show anything else.
    Having 25% of an ancestry closer to Mbuti than Zlaty_kun is pretty damning for the idea that they lack Deep African ancestry

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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mnemonics View Post
    Having 25% of an ancestry closer to Mbuti than Zlaty_kun is pretty damning for the idea that they lack Deep African ancestry
    These are very subjective interpretations of F4 ratios. They aren't saying IBM have as deep ancestry as Mbuti (besides the fact, Mbuti have alot of modern West African ancestry and East African ancestry and are nowhere near a full deep ancestral population).

    You still can explain why IBM get huge distance as high as 36 and 40% when modeling them as Mbuti+ Eurasian, Ethiopian_Mota + Eurasian or ancient Africa +Eurasian. You can't because you are clueless about it just like we all are without Ancien DNA.
    Last edited by SilkRoad; 07-03-2021 at 07:06 AM.

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