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Thread: Questions about Amazigh

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    Quote Originally Posted by leorcooper19 View Post
    To my knowledge, Natufian = West Eurasia is the opposite of what's true. Natufians were just the most northernly-spread of the so-called "Ancient North Africans", whose ancestry would have also peaked in, say, Old Kingdom Egypt, as well as presumably throughout North and East Africa. The correlation between ANA, Afro-Asiatic, and E-M35 is almost too good to pass up!

    Though, I'm not as well-read on this as I'd like to be. Feel free to school me if I'm missing some critical information.
    Natufians are 50/50 West Eurasian and Ancient North African and Iberomaurusians already have Natufian like ancestry ie including West Eurasian also there were movements from the Middle East after the time of Iberomaurusians that added more West Eurasian or to say it more simply the Maghreb much like South Asia is a genetic sink not a source now whether the Ancient North African/DE lineage originated in Northeast Africa or the Levant is another conversation.

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    Last edited by Aben Aboo; 06-24-2021 at 10:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vasil View Post
    Natufians are 50/50 West Eurasian and Ancient North African and Iberomaurusians already have Natufian like ancestry ie including West Eurasian also there were movements from the Middle East after the time of Iberomaurusians that added more West Eurasian or to say it more simply the Maghreb much like South Asia is a genetic sink not a source now whether the Ancient North African/DE lineage originated in Northeast Africa or the Levant is another conversation.
    Yeah Im not entirely convinced. Can you show a G25 model where they come out 50% Ancient north African?

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    Quote Originally Posted by leorcooper19 View Post
    To my knowledge, Natufian = West Eurasia is the opposite of what's true. Natufians were just the most northernly-spread of the so-called "Ancient North Africans", whose ancestry would have also peaked in, say, Old Kingdom Egypt, as well as presumably throughout North and East Africa. The correlation between ANA, Afro-Asiatic, and E-M35 is almost too good to pass up!

    Though, I'm not as well-read on this as I'd like to be. Feel free to school me if I'm missing some critical information.
    Can you explain how this can be true when Somalis and Ethiopian Afars can be modeled as 54% Dinka and 46% Natufian and 42% Dinka and 58% Natufian respectively, which is very close to the proportion of SSA vs. West Eurasian ancestry they've been assigned in formal studies?

    No one has properly defined ANA for me. My belief was that it was the original SSA related ancestry found in North Africa and especially among the Iberomaurusians as Ignis reiterated but then you have a guy above me saying that Natufians were 50% ANA and 50% West Eurasian, which sounds crazy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    Can you explain how this can be true when Somalis and Ethiopian Afars can be modeled as 54% Dinka and 46% Natufian and 42% Dinka and 58% Natufian respectively, which is very close to the proportion of SSA vs. West Eurasian ancestry they've been assigned in formal studies?

    No one has properly defined ANA for me. My belief was that it was the original SSA related ancestry found in North Africa and especially among the Iberomaurusians as Ignis reiterated but then you have a guy above me saying that Natufians were 50% ANA and 50% West Eurasian, which sounds crazy.
    Lazaridis et al. 2018:

    Our co-modeling of Epipaleolithic Natufians and Ibero-Maurusians from Taforalt confirms that the Taforalt population was mixed, but instead of specifying gene flow from the ancestors of Natufians into the ancestors of Taforalt as originally reported, we infer gene flow in the reverse direction (into Natufians). The Neolithic population from Morocco, closely related to Taforalt is also consistent with being descended from the source of this gene flow, and appears to have no admixture from the Levantine Neolithic (Supplementary Information section 3). If our model is correct, Epipaleolithic Natufians trace part of their ancestry to North Africa, consistent with morphological and archaeological studies that indicate a spread of morphological features and artifacts from North Africa into the Near East. Such a scenario would also explain the presence of Y-chromosome haplogroup E in the Natufians and Levantine farmers, a common link between the Levant and Africa." "An advantage of our model is that it allows for a local North African component in the ancestry of Taforalt, rather than deriving them exclusively from Levantine and Sub-Saharan sources.
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...23079.full.pdf
     
    My avatar is paleoart of a Neanderthal child by Tom Björklund, check him out: Hidden Content

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    Quote Originally Posted by Itrane2000 View Post
    this is strange, because the closest population to Iberomaurusian (if we exclude other north africans) are Kenyan Pastoral and tanzanian.
     

    Code:
    Distance to:	MAR_Taforalt
    0.26547860	KEN_Early_Pastoral_N:I12534
    0.28698369	KEN_Early_Pastoral_N:I12533
    0.28824884	KEN_HyraxHill_2300BP:HYR002
    0.28900013	TZA_PN_o:I13978
    0.29079738	TZA_PN:I13977
    0.29109100	KEN_Pastoral_N:I8809
    0.29335352	TZA_PN:I13981
    0.29433481	TZA_PN:I13762
    0.29503603	KEN_Pastoral_N_o:I8759
    0.29562118	KEN_Pastoral_N_Elmenteitan:I8923
    0.29638085	KEN_Pastoral_N:I8804
    0.29758464	TZA_PN:I13980
    0.29991987	KEN_Pastoral_N:I8874
    0.30117075	KEN_Pastoral_N_Elmenteitan:I12398
    0.30219286	KEN_LuKENHill_3500BP:LUK001
    0.30285161	TZA_PN:I13979
    0.30443054	KEN_Pastoral_N_Elmenteitan:I8922
    0.30461901	KEN_Pastoral_N_Elmenteitan:I8805
    0.30522598	KEN_Pastoral_N:I8830
    0.30538444	KEN_Pastoral_N_Elmenteitan:I12394
    0.30554677	KEN_Pastoral_N:I8918
    0.30563365	KEN_Pastoral_N_Elmenteitan:I10719
    0.30679808	KEN_Pastoral_N:I8814
    0.30700609	KEN_Pastoral_N:I8919
    0.30754229	TZA_Luxmanda_3100BP:I3726
    Moderns

    Code:
    Distance to:	MAR_Taforalt
    0.21089401	Berber_MAR_TIZ
    0.21901969	Saharawi
    0.21998867	Moroccan_South
    0.23124774	Berber_MAR_ERR
    0.24874846	Moroccan
    0.25131059	Mozabite
    0.26632464	Algerian
    0.26657608	Berber_Tunisia_Chen
    0.26798398	Tunisian_Berber_Matmata
    0.27099991	Tunisian_Berber_Tamezret
    0.27567117	Ethiopian_Tigray
    0.27601265	Ethiopian_Afar
    0.27652080	Eritrean
    0.27669899	Tunisian_Berber_Zraoua
    0.27673733	Moroccan_North
    0.27741189	Tunisian
    0.27789382	Ethiopian_Amhara
    0.27821903	Ethiopian_Agaw
    0.27866496	Tunisian_Douz
    0.28075202	Berber_Algeria
    0.28075666	Berber_Tunisia_Sen
    0.28121716	Ethiopian_Jew
    0.29029092	Libyan
    0.29512156	Ethiopian_Oromo
    0.29910060	Somali
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    Yeah Im not entirely convinced. Can you show a G25 model where they come out 50% Ancient north African?
    I mean according to the Lazaridis paper they are 50/50 West Eurasian and Basal Eurasian but since Ancient North Africans are supposed to be closer to Eurasians than others it would be hard to differentiate them from an actual Basal Eurasian lineage also the precursor to the Natufians the Kebaran replaces the Levantine Aurignacian kind of suddenly and could have come from Africa.

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    ANA can't be the same as SSA since IBM get huge distance at 33% distance from my memory when modeling them as Ust_Ishim (or WHG) + Dinka/Yoruba or Anatolian Pinarbarsi + Dinka/Yoruba.

    It doesn't make sense, you don't get anywhere this huge distance when you model any modern SSA/Eurasian admixed groups or individuals. Dinka for example is a perfect proxy for anyone with real SSA ancestry. I challenge modeling anyone from an Ethiopian, to a Puerto Rican to a Brazilian to a random mixed parentage SSA/European individual you will get reasonable distance below 5% , but not Iberomaurusians.

    ANA is not the same as modern SSA. It's either something African but closest to Eurasians (basically part of the Eurasian phylum itself) either Basal Eurasian itself.

    The world might not be just SSA vs Eurasian. If anything the modern world is wayy lesss diverse than it was back in the earlier Paleolithic as simple as this due to the expansions of Western Eurasians, East Asians over large areas and the homogeneization occurring as a result.
    And nobody in the field has yet be able to explain what Basal Eurasian is but something that is clear is that its already clearly closer to what is in Iberomaurusians than what is in Crown Eurasian and ANE. Might be a secondary OOA component at 80kya as proposed by a recent study.

    I've seen also PCA plot where Iran Neolithic samples show a clear shift towards Iberomaurusians (meaning that their Basal Eurasian shift vis a vis WHG/Vestonice and East Eurasian is expressing this way)
    Last edited by SilkRoad; 06-24-2021 at 08:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    No one has properly defined ANA for me. My belief was that it was the original SSA related ancestry found in North Africa and especially among the Iberomaurusians as Ignis reiterated but then you have a guy above me saying that Natufians were 50% ANA and 50% West Eurasian, which sounds crazy.
    Natufians definitely have significant African admixture (including ANA) but not 50% like the IBM samples.The Sudanese in the results below also probably has a decent chunk of ANA in themselves.

    Target: Levant_Natufian
    Distance: 19.3537% / 0.19353724
    84.0 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    9.2 Sudanese
    5.8 ANA_(simulated)

    1.0 ZAF_2000BP

    Target: Levant_Natufian
    Distance: 19.5863% / 0.19586337
    85.4 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    7.6 ANA_(simulated)
    4.2 CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP
    2.8 ZAF_2000BP
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    ANA can't be the same as SSA since IBM get huge distance at 33% distance from my memory when modeling them as Ust_Ishim (or WHG) + Dinka/Yoruba or Anatolian Pinarbarsi + Dinka/Yoruba.

    It doesn't make sense, you don't get anywhere this huge distance when you model any modern SSA/Eurasian admixed groups or individuals. Dinka for example is a perfect proxy for anyone with real SSA ancestry. I challenge modeling anyone from an Ethiopian, to a Puerto Rican to a Brazilian to a random mixed parentage SSA/European individual you will get reasonable distance below 5% , but not Iberomaurusians.

    ANA is not the same as modern SSA. It's either something African but closest to Eurasians (basically part of the Eurasian phylum itself) either Basal Eurasian itself.

    The world might not be just SSA vs Eurasian. If anything the modern world is wayy lesss diverse than it was back in the earlier Paleolithic as simple as this due to the expansions of Western Eurasians, East Asians over large areas and the homogeneization occurring as a result.
    And nobody in the field has yet be able to explain what Basal Eurasian is but something that is clear is that its already clearly closer to what is in Iberomaurusians than what is in WHG and ANE. Might be a secondary OOA component at 80kya as proposed by a recent study.

    I've seen also PCA plot where Iran Neolithic samples show a clear shift towards Iberomaurusians (meaning that their Basal Eurasian shift vis a vis WHG/Vestonice and East Eurasian is expressing this way)
    My guess is IBM is a mix of a very diverged form of SSA+very diverged form of west Eurasian. Could also be some sort of very basal lineage too. Both explanations are reasonable but I’m leaning towards the first as when we look at the distances, their closest ancients are Neolithic Horners.

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