Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 55

Thread: R1b Before Yamnaya

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    27
    Sex

    Question R1b Before Yamnaya

    Hello! Please forgive my fuzziness on the subject as I try to ask my question. Over the past few years I've seen multiple models of where R1b (specifically, the branch that is ancestral to modern west European r1b) was before it became so significant in the Yamnaya/Western Steppe Herder/Indo-European expansion. I am aware that, although there is some debate of the route taken between the steppe and western europe ( although if there is a more clear modern understanding I would love to learn about it), but there is, as far as I know, a much less clear picture of how R1b got to the steppe in the first place. I know R1a more or less stayed in the ancient north eurasian steppe and forests, but I've read conflicting things about R1b. Some sources seem to say that this lineage was also always present in this steppe region since r* and r1* made it their hunting grounds, and other sources claim that r1b broke off, went around the caspian sea into the zagros region, then came back up through the Caucasus after domesticating some animals, and thus became the foundation of Yamnaya.(Although r1b isn't present in caucasian hunter gatherers from what I know, but it IS present in EHG?)

    Honestly, I don't know what to think. Is some of this outdated? Can anyone lay out a more clear timeline connected with the different archaeological and genetic groups?

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to harrimir For This Useful Post:

     dosas (05-27-2021),  sheepslayer (05-28-2021)

  3. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,355
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by harrimir View Post
    Hello! Please forgive my fuzziness on the subject as I try to ask my question. Over the past few years I've seen multiple models of where R1b (specifically, the branch that is ancestral to modern west European r1b) was before it became so significant in the Yamnaya/Western Steppe Herder/Indo-European expansion. I am aware that, although there is some debate of the route taken between the steppe and western europe ( although if there is a more clear modern understanding I would love to learn about it), but there is, as far as I know, a much less clear picture of how R1b got to the steppe in the first place. I know R1a more or less stayed in the ancient north eurasian steppe and forests, but I've read conflicting things about R1b. Some sources seem to say that this lineage was also always present in this steppe region since r* and r1* made it their hunting grounds, and other sources claim that r1b broke off, went around the caspian sea into the zagros region, then came back up through the Caucasus after domesticating some animals, and thus became the foundation of Yamnaya.(Although r1b isn't present in caucasian hunter gatherers from what I know, but it IS present in EHG?)

    Honestly, I don't know what to think. Is some of this outdated? Can anyone lay out a more clear timeline connected with the different archaeological and genetic groups?
    If you mean R1b generally then it was quite spread including to Italy, long before the Yamnaya. If you are most interested in R1b-M269 then we are focusing in a bit.
    This graphic of the R1b Early Branching and Backbone to R1b-L151 gives you an idea of how far separated R1b-M269 from other branches.
    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...ults#RTIMELINE

  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to TigerMW For This Useful Post:

     dosas (05-27-2021),  harrimir (05-27-2021)

  5. #3
    Registered Users
    Posts
    656
    Sex

    Netherlands Kenya
    Those "other sources" are malarkey.

    R1a currently seems like it remained exclusively European until the IE expansions , and while R1b did have an earlier presence eastwards as seen with WSHG derived populations, they all had EHG ancestry and the centre of gravity regarding R1b was once again Europe.

    I don't like speculating on haplogroups that far back but it wouldn't surprise me if the split from R to R1a and R1b occured within the geographic boundaries of Europe.

    Any source that in 2021 claims that M269 was so detached from all the other R1b clades that it went deep in west Asia only to return with the domestication of animals either through Anatolia or the Caucasus is fan-fiction.

  6. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to CopperAxe For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (05-29-2021),  harrimir (05-27-2021),  JoeyP37 (05-27-2021),  xenus (05-27-2021)

  7. #4
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,355
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    ...
    Any source that in 2021 claims that M269 was so detached from all the other R1b clades that it went deep in west Asia only to return with the domestication of animals either through Anatolia or the Caucasus is fan-fiction.
    R1b-M269’s Most Recent Common Ancestor (MRCA) is very detached from M269- parts of R1b relationship-wise. There are 96 SNPs in the R1b-M269 phylogenetic equilvant block. That’s like 8000 years.
    This doesn’t mean they couldn’t live in the same Yamnaya community but sure doesn’t mean they had to.

    (Edit: reread original post)

    There are people who think some R1b-M269 basal form or ancestor was on the Iranian Plateau and was instrumental in the first copper working. It's possible but it seems more likely that the R1b-M269 lineage that spawned L23 and was part of the Yamnaya just moved straight west from Central Siberia. It's wide open and supposedly they were herding horses and possibly riding them.

    R1b-M269's figurative, though distant, brother is R1b-M73. He's found in ancient DNA from Kazhakstan to Latvia.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 05-27-2021 at 08:36 PM.

  8. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to TigerMW For This Useful Post:

     dosas (05-27-2021),  harrimir (05-27-2021),  peloponnesian (05-28-2021)

  9. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    27
    Sex

    So the modern consensus is that the eupedia (and other similar) narrative is totally wrong? Or is it more.. debated?

    So what I'm hearing is that the r1b-m269 people were just always in the steppe/ancient north eurasian group?

    Honestly if that is the case then I probably have no idea about the modern understanding of what cultures (archaeological or genetic) were uhhh.. between yamnaya r1b and the western europeans
    Last edited by harrimir; 05-27-2021 at 11:07 PM.

  10. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,355
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by harrimir View Post
    So the modern consensus is that the eupedia (and other similar) narrative is totally wrong? Or is it more.. debated?

    So what I'm hearing is that the r1b-m269 people were just always in the steppe/ancient north eurasian group?

    Honestly if that is the case then I probably have no idea about the modern understanding of what cultures (archaeological or genetic) were uhhh.. between yamnaya r1b and the western europeans
    There are several science papers out in the last couple of years covering the appropriate cultures that include ancient DNA results.

    I won’t comment generally on is Eupedia right or wrong but if you have a specific quote in context I will comment.

  11. #7
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,087
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    DF27, FGC15733
    mtDNA (M)
    T2f3

    I think the bigger problem with Eupedia is the use of heat maps, that are such strong visuals, they make people think that the darkest colors (areas of present concentration of a haplogroup, as a percentage of the male population -- in a specific area where they have been tested) must indicate the place of origin of that haplogroup. And that is almost never the case. They represent a present state of the genetic success of haplogroups that originated thousands of years ago, have spread, flourished here and died out there; and the concentrations (hot spots, on heat maps) just show where descendants of the haplogroup founder in question have been more successful breeders of sons than somebody else's.

    So, don't believe what your eyes seem to be telling you, and you'll be better off reading the verbiage on Eupedia. That does get revised, now and then.

  12. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to razyn For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (05-29-2021),  Dewsloth (05-28-2021),  dosas (05-28-2021),  homunculus (05-29-2021),  Michał (05-28-2021)

  13. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    27
    Sex

    I was talking more about their claims on this page https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...1b_Y-DNA.shtml

    It has been hypothetised that R1b people (perhaps alongside neighbouring J2 tribes) were the first to domesticate cattle in northern Mesopotamia some 10,500 years ago. R1b tribes descended from mammoth hunters, and when mammoths went extinct, they started hunting other large game such as bisons and aurochs. With the increase of the human population in the Fertile Crescent from the beginning of the Neolithic (starting 12,000 years ago), selective hunting and culling of herds started replacing indiscriminate killing of wild animals. The increased involvement of humans in the life of aurochs, wild boars and goats led to their progressive taming. Cattle herders probably maintained a nomadic or semi-nomadic existence, while other people in the Fertile Crescent (presumably represented by haplogroups E1b1b, G and T) settled down to cultivate the land or keep smaller domesticates.

    The analysis of bovine DNA has revealed that all the taurine cattle (Bos taurus) alive today descend from a population of only 80 aurochs. The earliest evidence of cattle domestication dates from circa 8,500 BCE in the Pre-Pottery Neolithic cultures in the Taurus Mountains. The two oldest archaeological sites showing signs of cattle domestication are the villages of Çayönü Tepesi in southeastern Turkey and Dja'de el-Mughara in northern Iraq, two sites only 250 km away from each others. This is presumably the area from which R1b lineages started expanding - or in other words the "original homeland" of R1b.
    The early R1b cattle herders would have split in at least three groups. One branch (M335) remained in Anatolia, but judging from its extreme rarity today wasn't very successful, perhaps due to the heavy competition with other Neolithic populations in Anatolia, or to the scarcity of pastures in this mountainous environment. A second branch migrated south to the Levant, where it became the V88 branch. Some of them searched for new lands south in Africa, first in Egypt, then colonising most of northern Africa, from the Mediterranean coast to the Sahel. The third branch (P297), crossed the Caucasus into the vast Pontic-Caspian Steppe, which provided ideal grazing grounds for cattle. They split into two factions: R1b1a1 (M73), which went east along the Caspian Sea to Central Asia, and R1b1a2 (M269), which at first remained in the North Caucasus and the Pontic Steppe between the Dnieper and the Volga. It is not yet clear whether M73 actually migrated across the Caucasus and reached Central Asia via Kazakhstan, or if it went south through Iran and Turkmenistan. In any case, M73 would be a pre-Indo-European branch of R1b, just like V88 and M335.

  14. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    656
    Sex

    Netherlands Kenya
    Quote Originally Posted by TigerMW View Post
    R1b-M269’s Most Recent Common Ancestor (MRCA) is very detached from M269- parts of R1b relationship-wise. There are 96 SNPs in the R1b-M269 phylogenetic equilvant block. That’s like 8000 years.
    This doesn’t mean they couldn’t live in the same Yamnaya community but sure doesn’t mean they had to.

    (Edit: reread original post)

    There are people who think some R1b-M269 basal form or ancestor was on the Iranian Plateau and was instrumental in the first copper working. It's possible but it seems more likely that the R1b-M269 lineage that spawned L23 and was part of the Yamnaya just moved straight west from Central Siberia. It's wide open and supposedly they were herding horses and possibly riding them.

    R1b-M269's figurative, though distant, brother is R1b-M73. He's found in ancient DNA from Kazhakstan to Latvia.

    Do we have any indications that M269 was present in the Iranian plateau and that these populations then had a genetic contribution to the forager populations that lead to M269 being quite deeply entrenched into their genepool?

    You know like examples of R1b-M269 in the numerous neolithic and chalcolithic samples we have from those regions prior to the ones we see in Europe?

    If not, then these thoughts are more akin to desires.

    Same with Siberia really. The M73 in Latvia is a few thousand year olders than the one at Botai, which once again has European forager ancestry.

    Domestication of the horse only began in the 4th millenium b.c Are you suggesting R1b-M269 carrying WSHG-like people rode into the Pontic-Caspian steppe and became ancestral to the Western Steppe Herders?

    Fan-fiction.

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to CopperAxe For This Useful Post:

     altvred (05-28-2021)

  16. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    656
    Sex

    Netherlands Kenya
    Quote Originally Posted by harrimir View Post
    So the modern consensus is that the eupedia (and other similar) narrative is totally wrong? Or is it more.. debated?

    So what I'm hearing is that the r1b-m269 people were just always in the steppe/ancient north eurasian group?

    Honestly if that is the case then I probably have no idea about the modern understanding of what cultures (archaeological or genetic) were uhhh.. between yamnaya r1b and the western europeans
    Eupedia is not a source, it is a junk website full of outdated and quite frankly bizarre statements.

  17. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to CopperAxe For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (05-29-2021),  altvred (05-28-2021),  etrusco (05-28-2021),  Helves (05-28-2021),  homunculus (05-29-2021),  Strider99 (05-28-2021)

Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Bulgarian Yamnaya is odd
    By JRD in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 07-04-2020, 09:47 PM
  2. Yamnaya-Like Khvalynsk Y-DNA J1
    By RCO in forum J1-M267
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 12-27-2019, 09:10 PM
  3. Do you match Yamnaya or EHG samples?
    By Piquerobi in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 78
    Last Post: 08-30-2018, 02:48 AM
  4. Mystery component in Yamnaya
    By alan in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 02-21-2015, 07:29 PM
  5. Yamna/Yamnaya Y-DNA
    By J Man in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 245
    Last Post: 02-21-2015, 01:40 AM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •