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Thread: R1b Before Yamnaya

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Johnson View Post
    Modern frequencies and distributions of “basal” subclades, provide us no hard evidence of their true origins, because present day diversity is not a good reflection of Palaeolithic diversity. This has been demonstrated with R1b-V88. So far via ancient DNA, we only have K2 and P samples from Northern Eurasia, specifically Northwestern China, Northeast Asia, Southeastern Europe, and central Siberia/North Asia. Tianyuan is missing the Southeast Asian variant of Denisovan ancestry if I recall correctly, so that already makes a SEA origin unlikely. That and it’s relatively difficult to discern what is really just common ancestry between Neanderthals and Denisovans, and what is real admixture, the two groups have more common ancestry with each other, than with their Homo Sapien cousins. Then there’s the Bacho Kiro IUP samples, and the possible pre-R/P result from the Epipaleotlithic sample BK-1653. Southeast Asia historically has always been a sink, not a faucet. We could be looking at a scenario, with K2b in India 50 kya ago. From there, some K2 bearing males could have migrated northeast, possibly around 30 kya. Meanwhile, a group of K2b also begins to migrate, specifically, towards Southeast Asia, where it is still carried to this day, by some males in the jungles of Indonesia. An northern South Asian/Indian origin of K2b could also explain why P has been detected in ancient Onge.
    I wouldn't rule out a Central Asian or Siberian origin either.

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  3. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Johnson View Post
    Modern frequencies and distributions of “basal” subclades, provide us no hard evidence of their true origins, because present day diversity is not a good reflection of Palaeolithic diversity. This has been demonstrated with R1b-V88.
    Agreed, basal branches are generally not even the true terminal haplogroups in modern humans. This just means his relatives/group are sparse or lightly tested.

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  5. #53
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    I’m really interested to see where the oldest NO/N first pops up, and the mtDNA accompanying it, this Crown Eurasian population, I wonder what these Bacho Kiro IUP-like people carried maternally? P could have originated in SA, after the K2 migrations to NEA and SEA too, just like the various lineages that left the steppe from the same source.
    Last edited by Jack Johnson; 06-03-2021 at 05:37 PM.

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  7. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Johnson View Post
    Modern frequencies and distributions of “basal” subclades, provide us no hard evidence of their true origins, because present day diversity is not a good reflection of Palaeolithic diversity. This has been demonstrated with R1b-V88. So far via ancient DNA, we only have K2 and P samples from Northern Eurasia, specifically Northwestern China, Northeast Asia, Southeastern Europe, and central Siberia/North Asia. Tianyuan is missing the Southeast Asian variant of Denisovan ancestry if I recall correctly, so that already makes a SEA origin unlikely. That and it’s relatively difficult to discern what is really just common ancestry between Neanderthals and Denisovans, and what is real admixture, the two groups have more common ancestry with each other, than with their Homo Sapien cousins. Then there’s the Bacho Kiro IUP samples, and the possible pre-R/P result from the Epipaleotlithic sample BK-1653. Southeast Asia historically has always been a sink, not a faucet. We could be looking at a scenario, with K2b in India 50 kya ago. From there, K2a/b bearing males could have migrated northeast, possibly around 30 kya. Meanwhile, another group of K2b/P males could have branched off, and migrated towards Southeast Asia, where K2b is still carried to this day, by some males in the jungles of Indonesia. An origin in northern South Asia/India for K2/K2b could also explain why P has been detected in ancient Onge.
    Early mainland southeast Asia did not have Denisovan, that's why Andamanses/Onge and Malaysian hunter-gatherers lack Denisovan admixture. This is something known for quiet some time now, first noticed by Reich way back in 2011 too.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5597900/

    Difference in Denisovan admixture in Tianyuan and Australasians (despite both of them carrying common clads) shows Denisovan admixture occurred as people moved north, and into martime islands.

    McColl (2018)

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    I'm glad my simple question could spark such an interesting conversation. Some of it is over my head, but I'm learning a lot.

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