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Thread: R1b Before Yamnaya

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    Do we have any indications that M269 was present in the Iranian plateau and that these populations then had a genetic contribution to the forager populations that lead to M269 being quite deeply entrenched into their genepool?
    No, and I don’t think that happened. I can’t say it is impossible, though.

    You know like examples of R1b-M269 in the numerous neolithic and chalcolithic samples we have from those regions prior to the ones we see in Europe?
    M269 was not found in West and Central Europe before the Early Bronze Age.

    Domestication of the horse only began in the 4th millenium b.c Are you suggesting R1b-M269 carrying WSHG-like people rode into the Pontic-Caspian steppe and became ancestral to the Western Steppe Herders?
    No and I didn’t say they did.


    Copperaxe, where is the M269 MRCA from and how did M269 get to West and Central Europe where it is so common today?

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    Quote Originally Posted by harrimir View Post
    I was talking more about their claims on this page https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...1b_Y-DNA.shtml
    There is only one single source of truth and that is ancient DNA. Not a single early M269, M73 nor V88 sample has been found south of the steppe. The Eupedia is rubbish based on pre-ancient DNA modern day frequency maps.
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    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigerMW View Post
    No, and I don’t think that happened. I can’t say it is impossible, though.
    Possibilities are meaningless. R1b-M269 can also come from the Americas by that argument. Back-migration and towards Europe with Przewalski's horses or whatever.

    Like seriously what is the point of bringing up these possibilities if you are not even going to argue for them?

    Quote Originally Posted by TigerMW View Post
    No and I didn’t say they did.
    You suggested a Siberia/Central Asia -> Europe movement with horses. That only occurred in the 4th millenium b.c with those kind of populations. So you did actually suggest that.

    Quote Originally Posted by TigerMW View Post
    It's possible but it seems more likely that the R1b-M269 lineage that spawned L23 and was part of the Yamnaya just moved straight west from Central Siberia. It's wide open and supposedly they were herding horses and possibly riding them.


    Quote Originally Posted by TigerMW View Post
    M269 was not found in West and Central Europe before the Early Bronze Age.
    Its current trail leads to Eastern Europe during the fourth millenium B.C with populations deeply nestled in the European genepool, and its later distributions are directly linked to these populations. If I2181 actually has M269 we can push it back to the fifth millenium b.c.

    Maybe we will find some older samples that help clear it up but as of right now these are the oldest and they dont look like they came from recent migrants to Europe.

    There are also yet-to-be-published Volosovo samples that supposedly had M269, according to the General. I guess those early agriculturalists brought their y-dna but did not bring their animal domesticates with them...

    Quote Originally Posted by TigerMW View Post
    Copperaxe, where is the M269 MRCA from and how did M269 get to West and Central Europe where it is so common today?
    MRCA: Unknown, for sure somewhere in Europe, Eastern Europe to be particular.

    Expansion: Indo-European migrations obviously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    Eupedia is not a source, it is a junk website full of outdated and quite frankly bizarre statements.
    Very unfortunate that's still one of the first websites to pop up when googling about Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups, this type of rubbish can be very misleading to the uninitiated searching for additional information after getting their genealogical DNA results. That and another site that shall remain nameless.

    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    Do we have any indications that M269 was present in the Iranian plateau and that these populations then had a genetic contribution to the forager populations that lead to M269 being quite deeply entrenched into their genepool?

    You know like examples of R1b-M269 in the numerous neolithic and chalcolithic samples we have from those regions prior to the ones we see in Europe?

    If not, then these thoughts are more akin to desires.

    Same with Siberia really. The M73 in Latvia is a few thousand year olders than the one at Botai, which once again has European forager ancestry.

    Domestication of the horse only began in the 4th millenium b.c Are you suggesting R1b-M269 carrying WSHG-like people rode into the Pontic-Caspian steppe and became ancestral to the Western Steppe Herders?

    Fan-fiction.
    I haven't heard of the Iranian R1b homeland theory yet, is it based on the same type of logic that leads Underhill to declare that R1a originated in Iran as well?

    Regarding M73, I believe that the aDNA so far makes it an open and shut case. By far the oldest sample are Mesolithic Baltic Hunter-Gatherers, there is also a far later sample from Norway but that line looks to have mostly died out in Europe. If I had to guess how that haplogroup ended up nowadays mostly in Turkic and Mongolic peoples it's probably.

    European HGs -> WSHG/Botai-related people -> late Andronovo groups around the Altai/Early Scythians -> Turkic-speakers

    At least that's the scenario I concuted in my head to explain why, my Tatar great-grandfather from Khvalynsk belongs to one of the branches of M73
    YDNA (P): R-Y33
    YDNA (P, maternal line): R-Y20756
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    Its current trail leads to Eastern Europe during the fourth millenium B.C with populations deeply nestled in the European genepool,
    But most of the said deep nestling was on the maternal side -- which isn't the "trail" of M269 (or any other YDNA haplogroup), and doesn't rule out steppe origin for it (M269). Besides which, the real argument is a little farther out the M269 branch of the tree. For that, the Volosovo samples may indeed be informative, we'll see eventually.

    Certainly much of the steppe is "European," if one defines that as west of the Urals. But not western European.

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    Thank you, you've all been very helpful. I've been reading about thisnstuff for years but there are just so many conflicting narratives it's hard to parse through. If it's not too much to ask, then, could you also give me a basic migration route through the archaeological/genetic route between yamnaya m269 and west European proto-celtic p312 groups?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    You suggested a Siberia/Central Asia -> Europe movement with horses. That only occurred in the 4th millenium b.c with those kind of populations. So you did actually suggest that.
    Please read carefully. I will embolden something you may have missed.

    Quote Originally Posted by TigerMW
    It's possible but it seems more likely that the R1b-M269 lineage that spawned L23 and was part of the Yamnaya just moved straight west from Central Siberia. It's wide open and supposedly they were herding horses and possibly riding them.
    The TMRCA for L23 is estimated (YFull) to from 5100BC to 3700BC. That's right about the time people were starting to herd horses. They were definitely hunting them. This progresses in to domestication and finally horse riding.

    By the way, I also think that early M269 forms, including prior to the full block formation, could have been roaming anywhere from Eastern Europe to Central Asia. As you know we have a P297+ "brother" of M269, that is R1b-M73, from Baltic hunter-gather to the east side of the Urals in Kazakhstan. We also have distant ancestor, R*, further east in Siberia (M'alta boy).

    Quote Originally Posted by TigerMW
    where is the M269 MRCA from and how did M269 get to West and Central Europe where it is so common today?
    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    MRCA: Unknown, for sure somewhere in Europe, Eastern Europe to be particular.
    Expansion: Indo-European migrations obviously.
    I don't disagree at all. In general, I agree but I'd restrict that to Eastern Europe, particularly the Ukraine and Russia and leave open the range to the possibility of Central Asia.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 05-28-2021 at 04:43 PM.

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  13. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by harrimir View Post
    Thank you, you've all been very helpful. I've been reading about thisnstuff for years but there are just so many conflicting narratives it's hard to parse through. If it's not too much to ask, then, could you also give me a basic migration route through the archaeological/genetic route between yamnaya m269 and west European proto-celtic p312 groups?
    I've written a whole series of summaries on these things based on scientific studies that I quote and cite. They are on the R1b.YDNA fb group. It is for members of the R1b All Subclades project so please join. Included are graphics of possible routes of R1b-M269>L23>L51>P310 into Central and West Europe.
    I'm adding the hashtag #prehistory to those articles.

    About 95% of all R1b in modern Europe is of the haplogroup R1b-M269>L23>L51>P310>L151. P312 and U106 descend from L151.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 05-28-2021 at 03:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by harrimir View Post
    ... If it's not too much to ask, then, could you also give me a basic migration route through the archaeological/genetic route between yamnaya m269 and west European proto-celtic p312 groups?
    A commonly discussed route on this site is from present day Ukraine (some Yamnaya like group north of Black Sea), to Southeast Poland(proto Corded Ware) and from there to Germany towards formation of Single Grave Culture that extended from Denmark/Baltic to the Netherlands and Rhine River Valley; and from Southeast Poland through Moravian Gate, towards Danube River Valley.

    Also, some prefer a slightly more Northern route in Forest/Steppe zone via southern Belarus into Poland that is more Riverine/Baltic focused.
    It could be both with U106 and some minor L151 subclades taking a more Northerly route and the bulk of P312 taking a more central/southern route. e.g. tons of ancient U152>L2 in Czech Rep (but U152 L2 could also be a back flow from SGC to the West)
    Regardless if they started in a Steppe or Forest Steppe environment, there is general consensus among many anthrogenica regulars (not 100%) that they passed north of the Carpathians before entering present day Poland.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 05-28-2021 at 04:44 PM.
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    Here is my drawing of the situation related to P310 coming into Central and West Europe. The faint yellow arrows are meant to be general potential expansion paths. There are multiple possibilities in my opinion.
    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/...urope.pdf?dl=1

    Don't lose track of the fact that P310 is downstream of M269>L23>L51 and P310 is found in ancient DNA in Mongolia about 3100 BC as a part of the Afansievo Culture. L51 is a missing link so far.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 05-28-2021 at 05:53 PM.

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