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Thread: R1b Before Yamnaya

  1. #21
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    Before the Yamnaya and a relative? The Mathieson study gives us the oldest R-M269 that I know of. The M269 call is questioned but Lazaridis confirms it and he should know.

    Iosif Lazaridis, "I believe this (I2181) is the oldest R-M269 currently known! Based on its coverage it could be ancestral for the two children nodes of R-M269, but no coverage."
    https://twitter.com/cquilesc/status/1352745001025998849

    The skeleton is from about 4450 BC in Bulgaria in the Varna Culture. He was considered a Late Chalcolithic outlier with high Steppe ancestry. What was he? A native and long time ancestry Varna farmer, or an interloper, perhaps trader, from the Steppes?

    This was at a time that Carpatho-Balkans Metallurgy Province (CBMP) trade expanded eastward into the Steppes' Eneolithic cultures like Sredni Stog and Khvalynsk.... future Yamnaya territory.

    Later, the Yamnaya picked up the Circumpontic Metallurgy Provice (CMP) when apparently interacting with the Maykops. The CBMP disintegrated as Yamnaya related peoples and CMP spread westward.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 05-28-2021 at 11:46 PM.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigerMW View Post
    Before the Yamnaya and a relative? The Mathieson study gives us the oldest R-M269 that I know of. The M269 call is questioned but Lazaridis confirms it and he should know.

    Iosif Lazaridis, "I believe this (I2181) is the oldest R-M269 currently known! Based on its coverage it could be ancestral for the two children nodes of R-M269, but no coverage."
    https://twitter.com/cquilesc/status/1352745001025998849

    The skeleton is from about 4450 BC in Bulgaria in the Varna Culture. He was considered a Late Chalcolithic outlier with high Steppe ancestry. What was he? A native and long time ancestry Varna farmer, or an interloper, perhaps trader, from the Steppes?

    This was at a time that Carpatho-Balkans Metallurgy Province (CBMP) trade expanded eastward into the Steppes' Eneolithic cultures like Sredni Stog and Khvalynsk.... future Yamnaya territory.

    Later, the Yamnaya picked up the Circumpontic Metallurgy Provice (CMP) when apparently interacting with the Maykops. The CBMP disintegrated as Yamnaya related peoples and CMP spread westward.
    The potential R1bM269 in Bulgaria if confirmed IMHO would be likely a clear representative of the Suvorovo-Novodanilovka chiftains expansion westward connected as you stated with search of metals and prestige goods. Not necessarily a violent push in this case. For what is worth recently on Eurogens someone posted his genome wide ancestry as being
    60 EEF
    Ukraine HG 27
    Steppe progress like 13

    But I do not think it is a correct one

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigerMW View Post
    Please read carefully. I will embolden something you may have missed.



    The TMRCA for L23 is estimated (YFull) to from 5100BC to 3700BC. That's right about the time people were starting to herd horses. They were definitely hunting them. This progresses in to domestication and finally horse riding.

    By the way, I also think that early M269 forms, including prior to the full block formation, could have been roaming anywhere from Eastern Europe to Central Asia. As you know we have a P297+ "brother" of M269, that is R1b-M73, from Baltic hunter-gather to the east side of the Urals in Kazakhstan. We also have distant ancestor, R*, further east in Siberia (M'alta boy).



    I don't disagree at all. In general, I agree but I'd restrict that to Eastern Europe, particularly the Ukraine and Russia and leave open the range to the possibility of Central Asia.
    Where is the evidence that L23 moved out of Central Siberia? Or any M269 really?

    Any presence of M269 in Central Asian is from Europe > Central Asia movements and until the Yamnaya/Afanasievo periods that didnt happen.

    So based on what would you extend the range of M269/L23 to Central Asia?
    Last edited by CopperAxe; 05-29-2021 at 09:19 AM.

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  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    (potential R1bM269 in Bulgaria) ...For what is worth recently on Eurogens someone posted his genome wide ancestry as being
    60 EEF
    Ukraine HG 27
    Steppe progress like 13

    But I do not think it is a correct one
    What is the correct one?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    Where is the evidence that L23 moved out of Central Siberia? Or any M269 really?

    Any presence of M269 in Central Asian is from Europe > Central Asia movements and until the Yamnaya/Afanasievo periods that didnt happen.

    So based on what would you extend the range of M269/L23 to Central Asia?
    I think we are talking about a potential range of origin. Notice the word “potential.” That’s what words like “could” imply. We don’t know the solution.

    What evidence do you have to say that variants of early R1b-M269 did not come out of Central Asia/Siberia* ?

    The earliest haplogroup R is from Siberia near Lake Baikal. This is where ANE (Ancient North Eurasian) was identified. We know it shows up later in the Yamnaya in R1b-L23 people, including at Samara. We also have L23 showing up about the same time as Samara but over in Afansievo by Lake Baikal. These were mobile people and this is wide open territory. South of the Ural Mountains there is little to inhibit east-west, west-east movement between East Europe and Siberia.

    * I do not mean the Central Siberian Plateau specifically but Central Asia in general, which includes Siberia.
    Last edited by TigerMW; 05-29-2021 at 01:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    There is only one single source of truth and that is ancient DNA. Not a single early M269, M73 nor V88 sample has been found south of the steppe. The Eupedia is rubbish based on pre-ancient DNA modern day frequency maps.
    As far as I remember this Eupedia R1b migration map "SE of Caspian trough Caucasus" was not updated in the last 10 years despite all the new ancient DNA results. At least alternative migration paths should be listed/shown.
    Particularly interested in: DNA/Admixture from Historical Tyrol, Central Alps and related/connected populations; Y-DNA J2a-M67-L210, J2a-PF5197-PF5169, R1a-M17, R1b-U106-Z372; mtDNA J1b1b, J1c1d2-A11884G, U5a2b2-G10685A, U5b1b1-b-T16192C! Projects: Hidden Content , Hidden Content , J2a-PF5197, ISOGG Wiki, GenWiki (german)

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  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by TigerMW View Post
    Notice the word “potential.” That’s what words like “could” imply. We don’t know the solution.
    If it is not based on something actually seen either through genetics or archaeology, "potential' and "would" are meaningless, and there is no need for a solution if there is no such problem in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by TigerMW View Post
    We also have L23 showing up about the same time as Samara but over in Afansievo by Lake Baikal
    I don't understand why this is mentioned as these populations were clearly recent migrants from Europe. The oldest age estimates of Afanasievo sites are actually older than the Yamnaya sites in Kazakhstan, meaning that it is unlikely that their presence in Siberia was the result of a long-lasting habitation of M269 populations in Central Asia who gradually moved eastwards. Probably more akin to a migration within the span of a generation, which is also somwhat supported by their full similarity with European Yamnaya populations.

    Quote Originally Posted by TigerMW View Post
    What evidence do you have to say that variants of early R1b-M269 did not come out of Central Asia/Siberia* ?
    i'd say the sheer absence of evidence should suffice. The earliest carriers of R1b-M269 come from populations that have next to no sign of ancestry from contemporary/slightly earlier populations in Central Asia and Siberia such as Botai or Steppe Maykop type peoples. Then added to that is that we have no shred of evidence of R1b-M269 amongst any of these populations and nothing that suggests that they did, for now. Given the amounts of Qs and Ns we have come across in Iron age Scytho-Siberian samples, you don't think we would have come across basal weird M269 lineages by then?

    The only R1bs found with these populations was Pre-PH155 and M73, but one of the two had EHG and the other did not just EHG but also steppe_eneolithic-related ancestry. So that's pretty poor evidence for R1bs in Siberia and Central Asia which are independent from Europe as it is, let alone M269 > L23.

    I think those two points alone throw a pretty big wrench in that.

    Regarding R* and Mal'ta Buret, keep in mind the distribution of the mammoth steppes around 20k years ago and the signs at the sites that they were mammoth hunters. It is likely that by the time of Mal'ta Buret you had populations of the Ancient North Eurasian cluster across that entire region.

    If yfull is anything to go by these samples also postdate the formations of R1a and R1b. So we should probably be looking in a different region, especially because all the samples after MA1 are in Q city. Add to that that R2 isn't really found there either but only in West Asia, and that there is no evidence for early R lineages crossing Beringia, the fact that MA1 has R* is not all too relevant when trying to argue for a presence of M269 in Siberia for those reasons in my opinion.

    It is possible and not unlikely that for the same reasons we don't see R2 in Central Asia, we also don't find R1a and R1b lineages detached from European populations in Central Asia/Siberia. These were small hunter-gatherer populations after all and in these highly competitive times many lineages died out. So R1 could have separated in Siberia with separate R1a and R1b clades migrating towards Europe and R2.

    But what indications do we have of that this occurred? And even more complicated, what signs do we have for M269 specifically being one of these lineages? There is nothing in the autosomal ancestry of these populations, or even their material traditions that supports such an origin and it is certainly not based on the currently available ancient distribution of R lineages.

    R1b lineages first pop in Europe, slightly beyond the western parts of where the mammoth steppes used to be. It is only thousands of years later we see any R1b in Central Asia. R1a is pretty much Europe exclusive until the bronze age. R2 only rears it head in West Asia, with later migrations to Central and South Asia.

    These were mobile people and this is wide open territory. South of the Ural Mountains there is little to inhibit east-west, west-east movement between East Europe and Siberia.
    Before adoption of wheels, the populations were actually not extremely mobile and their range was limited by the distribution of water bodies. The primary food sources of these foragers was fish, and the early pastoralists lived close to the water or various obvious reasons. The real mobility only comes after 3500 bc which is when you see pastoralists rapidly travel long distances and travel across dry areas such as the kazakh steppes.

    The only route you can argue for would be by way of the South Siberia to Europe via the Urals as that region has a whole bunch of connected water bodies. By way of the Elshanka culture for example, but that is pretty much akin to saying M269 came by WSHG related peoples. There isn't really any other archaeogically attested scenario that could support such a movement from the steppes of Central Asia or Siberia towards Europe.
    Last edited by CopperAxe; 05-29-2021 at 04:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TigerMW View Post
    What is the correct one?
    I think the real Smydovo would have a higher Progress like ancestry and less farmer IMHO
    40 EEF
    30 Ukraine Hg
    30 Progress like

  16. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post

    Before adoption of wheels, the populations were actually not extremely mobile and their range was limited by the distribution of water bodies. The primary food sources of these foragers was fish, and the early pastoralists lived close to the water or various obvious reasons. The real mobility only comes after 3500 bc which is when you see pastoralists rapidly travel long distances and travel across dry areas such as the kazakh steppes.

    The only route you can argue for would be by way of the South Siberia to Europe via the Urals as that region has a whole bunch of connected water bodies. By way of the Elshanka culture for example, but that is pretty much akin to saying M269 came by WSHG related peoples. There isn't really any other archaeogically attested scenario that could support such a movement from the steppes of Central Asia or Siberia towards Europe.
    I want to remind people that this is what much of the central Kazakh Steppe looks like:

     


    You're getting the same scenery when going East, all the way to the Altai.

    Before the domestication of the horse and the appearance of the wheeled cart, the Steppe was inhospitable to humans first and foremost due to the absence of any significant rivers or lakes across such a massive expanse.

    The Pontic-Caspian Steppe further West is greener and more livable. Still, between the major riverways, the terrain was just as uninhabitable - filled with grasslands that were useless to humans until the advent of pastoralism when they suddenly became valuable grazing grounds for livestock.

    So between the Mesolithic and the beginning of the Bronze Age, I highly doubt that there were any significant population movements across the Eurasian Steppe.

    A cursory glance at the archaeological record combined with the aDNA we have from that period supports the fact that before the Bronze Age, the Steppe wasn't the highway between Asia and Europe we tend to imagine it being.

    So taking all that into account, why would we assume that M269 came from Siberia? I mean, even if hypothetically that scenario is possible, all the ancient DNA points towards an origin somewhere in Eastern Europe.
    YDNA (P): R-Y33
    YDNA (P, maternal line): R-Y20756
    YDNA(M): E-Y6938

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  18. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by altvred View Post
    I want to remind people that this is what much of the central Kazakh Steppe looks like:

     


    You're getting the same scenery when going East, all the way to the Altai.

    Before the domestication of the horse and the appearance of the wheeled cart, the Steppe was inhospitable to humans first and foremost due to the absence of any significant rivers or lakes across such a massive expanse.

    The Pontic-Caspian Steppe further West is greener and more livable. Still, between the major riverways, the terrain was just as uninhabitable - filled with grasslands that were useless to humans until the advent of pastoralism when they suddenly became valuable grazing grounds for livestock.

    So between the Mesolithic and the beginning of the Bronze Age, I highly doubt that there were any significant population movements across the Eurasian Steppe.

    A cursory glance at the archaeological record combined with the aDNA we have from that period supports the fact that before the Bronze Age, the Steppe wasn't the highway between Asia and Europe we tend to imagine it being.

    So taking all that into account, why would we assume that M269 came from Siberia? I mean, even if hypothetically that scenario is possible, all the ancient DNA points towards an origin somewhere in Eastern Europe.
    To add to that, what is easy to forget is that when you are pastoral you still need a place to store all your materials as well as a source of water/liquids, you cannot carry that around all day roaming on the steppes with your livestock. You are going to need a "base" one way or another.

    This is why the introduction of wagon and wheels was so instrumental, as you could store all your belongings in a wagons. Now you can easily move considerable distances across dry teritories as you can take your water, milk, mead and whatnot with you.

    It was a game changer to the point that the nearly the entire steppes became close to fully nomadic with practically no agriculture when a more stationary agropastoral lifestyle would've sufficed as was already practised before.

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