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Thread: The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2,000-year archeogenomic time transe

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    Have they released Y-DNA from this study or is it not yet published?

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    If even 20% of the Iron Age Etruscans are outliers, then I can't see how anyone can argue for an Italian peninsula Etruscan language continuity, especially all of the other data points we have:
    I agree 100% with this as I have described before. But the population of the Neolithic Revolution (bringing farming and metallurgy from Turkey into the Balkans and from here into several locations in Europe including Central Italy) are the same people (speaking the same proto farming language which is called Etruscan in the Iron Age) as the Early Iron Age Eastern Mediterranean elite population which migrated from the Eastern Mediterranean regions (regions where the Pelasgians / Sea People / Tyrrhenians were settled) into Central Italy.

    Between the Neolithic Revolution in Europe(6500 - 4000 BCE) and the Early Iron Age (800 BCE) there is a gap of thousands of years. And the most important gap is the Bronze Age. So the proto farming language (proto Etruscan) got replaced with a proto Italic/Latin language in the Bronze Age. And then in the Early Iron Age the proto farming language (proto Etruscan) dominated Central Italy again. So there is no continuity at all. It is a layer upon layer of movements, re-migrations, deportations and replacements. The only similarity is that the few people descended from the Neolithic Revolution population whom didnt get replaced in the Bronze Age, do have the same Neolithic West Asian ancestors as the Early Iron Age minority elite outliers in central Italy.

    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    - Etruscans displacing Umbrians as per Roman historians
    - The Romans living under Etruscan kings as per Roman historians
    - The "Orientalizing Period" during the early Iron Age which itself gives rise to the Villanovan Culture
    - Artifacts of an Etruscan-like language (but not Etruscan itself) showing up in Lemnos, and island close to the coast where the Romans told us to look for them.
    The Early Iron Age outlier R850 (Antonio et al) (with recent Eastern Mediterranean / Aegean ancestry) was from the Rutuli tribe of the Etruscans. The Rutuli were Latinized Etruscans in the Early Iron Age of Latium. According to the historical sources, the king of the Rutuli (Turnus / Tyrrhenus) was one on the founders of the Etruscan League, and was the legendary leader of the Etruscans whom migrated from around Lydia (Aegean region, including locations like Lemnos) into Etruria (bringing with them the "Orientalizing Period"). So the Rutuli were related to the Etruscan kings of Rome. The Etruscans were in the beginning of the Early Iron Age minority elites ruling over the majority Italic/Latin population. Mixing happened two-ways, meaning that Etruscans became Latinized and Latins became Etruscanized. And towards the Roman Imperial period, the Eastern Mediterranean ancestry of the original Etruscans increased because of the both ways of mixing which occured for centuries, and then during the Roman Imperial period the Italic/Latin speakers became the elite (of a population which consists of a mix of assimilated Etruscans and Italic/Latins) forming the Roman Empire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by manesh View Post
    I agree 100% with this as I have described before. But the population of the Neolithic Revolution (bringing farming and metallurgy from Turkey into the Balkans and from here into several locations in Europe including Central Italy) are the same people (speaking the same proto farming language which is called Etruscan in the Iron Age) as the Early Iron Age Eastern Mediterranean elite population which migrated from the Eastern Mediterranean regions (regions where the Pelasgians / Sea People / Tyrrhenians were settled) into Central Italy.

    Between the Neolithic Revolution in Europe(6500 - 4000 BCE) and the Early Iron Age (800 BCE) there is a gap of thousands of years. And the most important gap is the Bronze Age. So the proto farming language (proto Etruscan) got replaced with a proto Italic/Latin language in the Bronze Age. And then in the Early Iron Age the proto farming language (proto Etruscan) dominated Central Italy again. So there is no continuity at all. It is a layer upon layer of movements, re-migrations, deportations and replacements. The only similarity is that the few people descended from the Neolithic Revolution population whom didnt get replaced in the Bronze Age, do have the same Neolithic West Asian ancestors as the Early Iron Age minority elite outliers in central Italy.





    The Early Iron Age outlier R850 (Antonio et al) (with recent Eastern Mediterranean / Aegean ancestry) was from the Rutuli tribe of the Etruscans. The Rutuli were Latinized Etruscans in the Early Iron Age of Latium. According to the historical sources, the king of the Rutuli (Turnus / Tyrrhenus) was one on the founders of the Etruscan League, and was the legendary leader of the Etruscans whom migrated from around Lydia (Aegean region, including locations like Lemnos) into Etruria (bringing with them the "Orientalizing Period"). So the Rutuli were related to the Etruscan kings of Rome. The Etruscans were in the beginning of the Early Iron Age minority elites ruling over the majority Italic/Latin population. Mixing happened two-ways, meaning that Etruscans became Latinized and Latins became Etruscanized. And towards the Roman Imperial period, the Eastern Mediterranean ancestry of the original Etruscans increased because of the both ways of mixing which occured for centuries, and then during the Roman Imperial period the Italic/Latin speakers became the elite (of a population which consists of a mix of assimilated Etruscans and Italic/Latins) forming the Roman Empire.
    Why this complicated series of placement/replacements. If iron age italics ended up being 75% Remedello/Rinaldone like and 25% steppe the most simple scenary is that this EEF language managed to survive. Do you know where the etruscan/retic language and sphere of influence is to be found in Italy? Check out a map and it will overlap almost perfectly with the Rinaldone/Remedello cultures. Rinaldone for core Etruria and Remedello for the Po plain and the alps were retic inscriptions are found.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    If even 20% of the Iron Age Etruscans are outliers, then I can't see how anyone can argue for an Italian peninsula Etruscan language continuity, especially all of the other data points we have
    Indeed, IMO it is important to see the difference between the origin of Etruscans and the origin of the Etruscan language, which may or may not line up with each other; one must be careful to draw conclusions on a linguistic origins question, based on not much more than genetic information. Especially for the interpretation of Etruscan as an EEF relic is too little information IMO; it seems to lack specific characteristics that seem present in the substrate vocabulary that is attributed to the farmers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pylsteen View Post
    Indeed, IMO it is important to see the difference between the origin of Etruscans and the origin of the Etruscan language, which may or may not line up with each other; one must be careful to draw conclusions on a linguistic origins question, based on not much more than genetic information. Especially for the interpretation of Etruscan as an EEF relic is too little information IMO; it seems to lack specific characteristics that seem present in the substrate vocabulary that is attributed to the farmers.



    Which are these specific characteristics?

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    Why this complicated series of placement/replacements. If iron age italics ended up being 75% Remedello/Rinaldone like and 25% steppe the most simple scenary is that this EEF language managed to survive. Do you know where the etruscan/retic language and sphere of influence is to be found in Italy? Check out a map and it will overlap almost perfectly with the Rinaldone/Remedello cultures. Rinaldone for core Etruria and Remedello for the Po plain and the alps were retic inscriptions are found.
    The frequency of autosomal ancestry is not always determinative for a conclusion. The change of a set of Y-chromosome haplogroups is in my opinion more informative. Lets divide the Y-chromosome haplogroup chronology of central and southern Europe per period of time (based on the majority of new haplogroups found in each period).

    WHG: R1b, I, C1a2, H2

    EEF: G2, J1, J2, T (Proto Etruscan related Farming language begins to dominate the earlier local WHG population)

    Bronze Age: R1a, R1b (Proto Italic/Latin and Celtic related Steppe originated language replaces / deports the majority of earlier local EEF population to the Eastern Mediterranean regions) (minor remnants of G2 could have survived)

    Early Iron Age: G2, J1, J2, T (Etruscan language coming from the Eastern Mediterranean regions dominates the earlier local Bronze Age population)

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    Quote Originally Posted by manesh View Post
    The frequency of autosomal ancestry is not always determinative for a conclusion. The change of a set of Y-chromosome haplogroups is in my opinion more informative. Lets divide the Y-chromosome haplogroup chronology of central and southern Europe per period of time (based on the majority of new haplogroups found in each period).

    WHG: R1b, I, C1a2, H2

    EEF: G2, J1, J2, T (Proto Etruscan related Farming language begins to dominate the earlier local WHG population)

    Bronze Age: R1a, R1b (Proto Italic/Latin and Celtic related Steppe originated language replaces / deports the majority of earlier local EEF population to the Eastern Mediterranean regions) (minor remnants of G2 could have survived)

    Early Iron Age: G2, J1, J2, T (Etruscan language coming from the Eastern Mediterranean regions dominates the earlier local Bronze Age population)
    I do not understand what you mean. The EEF ylines where totally replaced and managed to come back with the migrations connected with the orientalizing horizon?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pylsteen View Post
    Indeed, IMO it is important to see the difference between the origin of Etruscans and the origin of the Etruscan language, which may or may not line up with each other; one must be careful to draw conclusions on a linguistic origins question, based on not much more than genetic information. Especially for the interpretation of Etruscan as an EEF relic is too little information IMO; it seems to lack specific characteristics that seem present in the substrate vocabulary that is attributed to the farmers.
    agree

    The etruscan using a non-indo european language ruled Rome an indo-european language people for more than 200 years............clearly do not people find it odd that the etruscans changed their language and not the Romans changed to etruscan non-indo european


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-CTS6397 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

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    Quote Originally Posted by manesh View Post
    The frequency of autosomal ancestry is not always determinative for a conclusion. The change of a set of Y-chromosome haplogroups is in my opinion more informative. Lets divide the Y-chromosome haplogroup chronology of central and southern Europe per period of time (based on the majority of new haplogroups found in each period).

    WHG: R1b, I, C1a2, H2

    EEF: G2, J1, J2, T (Proto Etruscan related Farming language begins to dominate the earlier local WHG population)

    Bronze Age: R1a, R1b (Proto Italic/Latin and Celtic related Steppe originated language replaces / deports the majority of earlier local EEF population to the Eastern Mediterranean regions) (minor remnants of G2 could have survived)

    Early Iron Age: G2, J1, J2, T (Etruscan language coming from the Eastern Mediterranean regions dominates the earlier local Bronze Age population)
    latest documentary I saw, is the bulk of farmers in central europe and further north originate from 100% hunters , who grew wheat to make beer to drink at their feasts and everyday life.....over time, more changed over as they began to settle.........I have never been happy with classifying haplogroups as either farmers or hunters


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-CTS6397 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

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    Quote Originally Posted by manesh View Post
    The frequency of autosomal ancestry is not always determinative for a conclusion. The change of a set of Y-chromosome haplogroups is in my opinion more informative. Lets divide the Y-chromosome haplogroup chronology of central and southern Europe per period of time (based on the majority of new haplogroups found in each period).

    WHG: R1b, I, C1a2, H2

    EEF: G2, J1, J2, T (Proto Etruscan related Farming language begins to dominate the earlier local WHG population)

    Bronze Age: R1a, R1b (Proto Italic/Latin and Celtic related Steppe originated language replaces / deports the majority of earlier local EEF population to the Eastern Mediterranean regions) (minor remnants of G2 could have survived)

    Early Iron Age: G2, J1, J2, T (Etruscan language coming from the Eastern Mediterranean regions dominates the earlier local Bronze Age population)
    There is no H2 among WHG....H2 is EEF.

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