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Thread: The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2,000-year archeogenomic time transe

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    Quote Originally Posted by manesh View Post
    Can someone please reach to Johannes Krause?

    And also on this wikipedia page I found the following description of his book:



    Anyone read this book?
    I've had it for two months but haven't opened it yet. I'll try to check it this weekend.
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    I'd like to throw a prediction out there; I believe there will be a fair chunk of DF27 among the Etruscans. It was found in BA Sicily already if I remember correctly.

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    I am afraid we likely may not see this until after September because the study appears to be presented on the EAA2021:

    The origin and genomic legacy of the Etruscans

    https://www.e-a-a.org/EAA2021/Progra...gram=3#Program

    I guess one could still ask Dr. Wolfgang Haak, Leader of the Molecular Anthropology Group or Dr. Stephan Schiffels, leader of the population genetics group, when in doubt. They might be closer to the actual study, than Johannes Krause.

    I think it is highly likely this study has something to do with this:

    Max Planck Harvard Research Center for the Archaeoscience of the Ancient Mediterranean


    At the core of MHAAM are three research areas:

    The first "globalization" of the eastern Mediterranean area in the late Bronze Age and early Iron Age (ca. 1600-1000 BC).
    The so-called "Phoenician" and "Greek" migrations in the early 1st millennium BC throughout the Mediterranean.
    The link between human mobility and the spread of diseases in ancient times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by manesh View Post
    Can someone please reach to Johannes Krause?

    And also on this wikipedia page I found the following description of his book:



    Anyone read this book?
    This the correct quotation from the book:

    Its likely that Basque, Paleo Sardinian, Minoan, and Etruscan developed on the continent in the course of the Neolithic Revolution.
    It means that the Etruscan language is a language which originated in West Asia, and came with the people which brought Anatolia_N into Europe during the EEF period.

    Not to forget that after the Neolithic Revolution, there is a Bronze Age replacement in Europe coming from the Steppe.

    So, the Etruscan (proto Etruscan) language could have been replaced with the proto Italic/Latin language during the Bronze Age period, forcing the bulk of the proto Etruscan population to deport to the Eastern Mediterranean regions. The scientific data supports a violence replacement during the Bronze Age period.
    And then in the Early Iron Age period, Etruscan could have replaced the since Bronze Age dominating Italic/Latin language speaking population from central Italy.

    This means that there could have been a few remnants (even if the bulk was replaced or deported) of the Neolithic proto Etruscan population during the Bronze Age period. And then in the Early Iron Age period, the Etruscan language domination was reintroduced into the region by an elite group coming from the Eastern Mediterranean regions (having the same origin as the remnants of the EEF migrants).

    So, there was an encounter in the Early Iron Age period of central Italy between a minority elite Etruscan group (which consists of an Eastern Mediterranean ancestry plus the earlier EEF / Anatolia_N ancestry) and the majority local Italic/Latin population (which consists of a major Steppe ancestry plus a minor remnant of the EEF / Anatolia_N ancestry). These two groups mixed with each other in centuries, and finally in the Roman Imperial period, the Eastern Mediterranean ancestry reached its peak.

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    Quote Originally Posted by manesh View Post
    This the correct quotation from the book:



    It means that the Etruscan language is a language which originated in West Asia, and came with the people which brought Anatolia_N into Europe during the EEF period.

    Not to forget that after the Neolithic Revolution, there is a Bronze Age replacement in Europe coming from the Steppe.

    So, the Etruscan (proto Etruscan) language could have been replaced with the proto Italic/Latin language during the Bronze Age period, forcing the bulk of the proto Etruscan population to deport to the Eastern Mediterranean regions. The scientific data supports a violence replacement during the Bronze Age period.
    And then in the Early Iron Age period, Etruscan could have replaced the since Bronze Age dominating Italic/Latin language speaking population from central Italy.

    This means that there could have been a few remnants (even if the bulk was replaced or deported) of the Neolithic proto Etruscan population during the Bronze Age period. And then in the Early Iron Age period, the Etruscan language domination was reintroduced into the region by an elite group coming from the Eastern Mediterranean regions (having the same origin as the remnants of the EEF migrants).

    So, there was an encounter in the Early Iron Age period of central Italy between a minority elite Etruscan group (which consists of an Eastern Mediterranean ancestry plus the earlier EEF / Anatolia_N ancestry) and the majority local Italic/Latin population (which consists of a major Steppe ancestry plus a minor remnant of the EEF / Anatolia_N ancestry). These two groups mixed with each other in centuries, and finally in the Roman Imperial period, the Eastern Mediterranean ancestry reached its peak.
    I disagree when you claim "a MAJOR Steppe ancestry in the majority local Italic/Latin population".

    The Steppe element was only relatively major compared to Neolithic times and nowhere near 50pc or more.

    The Italic-speakers were majority Copper Age and minority Steppe.
    Last edited by Cascio; 06-19-2021 at 01:25 PM.

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    The bronze age Apennine Culture spread from Calabria nearly to the Po river. The Proto Villanovan sites appeared just when the bronze age Terramare sites were abandoned. These Proto Villanovan sites were anywhere in Italy, they can't be the result of a single massive migration from central Europe, this migration must have happened earlier, in several waves, over the course of several centuries. Many of these Proto Villanovan sites were in the area of the previous Apennine culture.

    The Proto Villanovan sites of Tuscany and southern Emilia Romagna, which later became the regional form known as Villanovan, were still, I think, within the area of the previous bronze age Apennine culture area, at the border with the bronze age Terramare sites. Perhaps a paper with many samples from neolithic Italy would shed some light on the ethnic origins of this Apennine culture and also on the origins of the Etruscan language. Perhaps in some areas of the Apennine culture was spoken the same language as northeastern Italy, where Raethic was spoken.

    Questions: where did the Terramare people end up? Where does the Italian CHG component come from?
    Last edited by patrizio22; 06-19-2021 at 10:05 AM. Reason: clarity

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    Questions: where did the Terramare people end up?
    We only have one Terramare sample from Olmo di Nogara (1400-1200 BC) and he was R-L51>>S1161+. The lineage then appears in a Latini sample from around Rome, so we can guess that there was an important amount of continuity from Terremare until the Iron Age.

    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    Where does the Italian CHG component come from?
    Unlike some other parts of Europe, CHG was already in Italy during the Copper Age (pre-Bell Beaker) without EHG.
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    Quote Originally Posted by manesh View Post
    Can someone please reach to Johannes Krause?

    And also on this wikipedia page I found the following description of his book:

    Anyone read this book?
    I wrote this word for word elsewhere, but will repeat it here: I think the importance of pre-Imperial outliers is being substantially understated. Maybe if an outlier is 1-of-100, then OK, but Antonio tested 3 Etruscans and one had substantial North African ancestry, and a second carries J2b-L283 instead of R-P312 found in Bell Beaker samples from Northern Italy all the way down to Sicily during the Early Bronze Age. I don't know about you but, I don't know how this is unimportant when you had Punics literally just across the Tyrrhenian Sea in Sardinia and Magna Graecia just to the south.

    If even 20% of the Iron Age Etruscans are outliers, then I can't see how anyone can argue for an Italian peninsula Etruscan language continuity, especially all of the other data points we have:

    - Etruscans displacing Umbrians as per Roman historians
    - The Romans living under Etruscan kings as per Roman historians
    - The "Orientalizing Period" during the early Iron Age which itself gives rise to the Villanovan Culture
    - Artifacts of an Etruscan-like language (but not Etruscan itself) showing up in Lemnos, and island close to the coast where the Romans told us to look for them.
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    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    I wrote this word for word elsewhere, but will repeat it here: I think the importance of pre-Imperial outliers is being substantially understated. Maybe if an outlier is 1-of-100, then OK, but Antonio tested 3 Etruscans and one had substantial North African ancestry, and a second carries J2b-L283 instead of R-P312 found in Bell Beaker samples from Northern Italy all the way down to Sicily during the Early Bronze Age. I don't know about you but, I don't know how this is unimportant when you had Punics literally just across the Tyrrhenian Sea in Sardinia and Magna Graecia just to the south.

    If even 20% of the Iron Age Etruscans are outliers, then I can't see how anyone can argue for an Italian peninsula Etruscan language continuity, especially all of the other data points we have:

    - Etruscans displacing Umbrians as per Roman historians
    - The Romans living under Etruscan kings as per Roman historians
    - The "Orientalizing Period" during the early Iron Age which itself gives rise to the Villanovan Culture
    - Artifacts of an Etruscan-like language (but not Etruscan itself) showing up in Lemnos, and island close to the coast where the Romans told us to look for them.
    Indeed.

    The CHG element has gradually entered Italy over thousands of years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    I wrote this word for word elsewhere, but will repeat it here: I think the importance of pre-Imperial outliers is being substantially understated. Maybe if an outlier is 1-of-100, then OK, but Antonio tested 3 Etruscans and one had substantial North African ancestry, and a second carries J2b-L283 instead of R-P312 found in Bell Beaker samples from Northern Italy all the way down to Sicily during the Early Bronze Age. I don't know about you but, I don't know how this is unimportant when you had Punics literally just across the Tyrrhenian Sea in Sardinia and Magna Graecia just to the south.

    If even 20% of the Iron Age Etruscans are outliers, then I can't see how anyone can argue for an Italian peninsula Etruscan language continuity, especially all of the other data points we have:

    - Etruscans displacing Umbrians as per Roman historians
    - The Romans living under Etruscan kings as per Roman historians
    - The "Orientalizing Period" during the early Iron Age which itself gives rise to the Villanovan Culture
    - Artifacts of an Etruscan-like language (but not Etruscan itself) showing up in Lemnos, and island close to the coast where the Romans told us to look for them.




    none of this point is conclusive about a possible recent arrival of etruscan language in Italy. Roman historians said that latins came from Anatolia (lol), a good reminder of how much we have to consider trustworthy the expertise about ethnic origins of roman scholars. Romans living under etruscan have zero value. It could just mean that in the middle thyrrenian sea local italian copper age people were able to subdue local iron age italics. Nothing more than that, nothing less than that.
    Orientaliazing was a cultural feature very important forthe history of the peninsula but the fact that you have etruscan like language in the alps among population with likely zero recent admixture from the near east speaks in favor of the local EEF preserving the language even among para celtic/celtic and para/italic IE speakers in the alps.
    Fact that you have an etruscan like language in Lemnos reinforces the idea that these languages before the IE were local ANF/EEF languages that managed to survive. And since these were EEF languages the most parsimonious explanation is that they evolved in Italy and elsewhere since the arrival of this genetic cluster
    Last edited by etrusco; 06-19-2021 at 01:39 PM.

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