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Thread: The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2,000-year archeogenomic time transe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    This is a very cold take, my friend. I wouldn't want to be you when Hellenistic Southern Italians are released. We've already heard what Pompeii is going to be like from Erik's hints years ago, so I don't know what you're expecting.
    Before and during the Hellenistic period most Greek cities of Campania fell under foreign rule. How did East-Med ancestry made it there? I could believe it for Greece but not for Campania and probably the rest of Magna Greacia. And if it did reach Southern Italy wouldn't it be balanced with native Italic ancestry?

    Again I am not ruling out some outliers that could have been there. Most of my predictions have been accurate. It's not just a bet game.

    I also oppose the slavery explanation for many reasons.

    Pompeii was a Latin speaking Roman colony that peaked in Early Imperial Rome before Nero was born. They did not have Greek or Semetic names.

    For Rome I am sure most of the shift is a cause of direct transplanted MENA population not a Southern Italian inspired shift. Even if Greeks of Italy turn out to be Cretan-like by the time of Hellenistic era it still does not prove the Imperial Rome hypothesis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahuwarhd View Post
    Yes that's been my thought process regarding AHG, however I also question the purity of Natufian samples, being that they are so closely related to AHG and come up in so many populations that have no real population history associated with the levant. I've a feeling natufians in reality were already a mixed population and had a significant amount of AHG input and lazaridis also mentioned this in the dudzuana study in 2019, claiming that natufians are better modled as Dzudzuana/AHG (a fairly homogenous cluster) with the addition of 14% Taforalt north african ancestry. This, in turn would explain why they cluster so close to AHG and Barcin in terms of genetic distance relative to hunter gatherer populations. It would also explain why such ancestry is coming up in such massive quantities in places that have little to no population history associated with the levant, such as peninsular italy - especially when we know that by the roman era that contemporary levantine populations were only 20-25% natufian-like.
    Several of these components are some way related to each other (and they are themselves a mix of older components). In many cases there were enough time for certain "divergence".
    Natufians could be modeled as 86% Dzudzuana and 14% of Taforalt, indeed, whereas Neolithic Anatolians and Dzudzuana would form a clade. Taforalt itself would have had some Dzudzuana (55%) - which would mean that Natufian derived from Dzudzuana by far -, and Dzudzuana in turn could be modeled as 72% Villabruna-like.
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...1/423079-1.pdf

    But yes in regards to modern tuscans and central italians, their shift from the imperial cluster was not just an increase in AHG ancestry but also EHG with little to no change in WHG. North Italians are the only population I know of that fit the bill for that genetically and the sheer modern continuity of italic culture and language combined with the historic accounts of relative population sizes makes this convincing to me.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahuwarhd View Post
    There was already one bronze age greek outlier (from mainland greece if I'm not mistaken) that came up as very close to modern northern greek like. I think, it will become apparant in the future that northern greeks in ancient times, just like today could be differentiated genetically from the islanders. It's honestly likely quite a similar scenario to italy and the imperial cluster with questions associated with that. Better sampling will reveal what's going on I imagine. As for friuli I don't believe they really have any notable slavic mixture. There are slavs living there, however they occupy a very small tract of land and were defeated by the lombards, further preventing their expansion in the middle ages. They are extremely small in number. Friuliani from what I've seen actually are extremely genetically similar to veneti. They may as well be the same population.
    I think I remember this new sample. I don't think all Steppe in modern Greeks came from Slavs, of course.
    I agree that Friulani are way closer to Venetians than to, say, Slovenians. The Friuliani certainly belong to North Italian cluster. That said, I think they did have some minor Slav influence, even if indirectly, and naturally more in Venezia Giulia than in Friuli itself. It could explain the R1a in Udine (almost 15%), very uncommon in other parts of Italy. Notice, too, that Northeast_Italy is the only Italian pop that gets this "extra-EHG" I referred to, perhaps a "Slavic sign" in this specific context, also found in Austrians, East Germans, Balkans etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yupi View Post
    Before and during the Hellenistic period most Greek cities of Campania fell under foreign rule. How did East-Med ancestry made it there? I could believe it for Greece but not for Campania and probably the rest of Magna Greacia. And if it did reach Southern Italy wouldn't it be balanced with native Italic ancestry?

    Again I am not ruling out some outliers that could have been there. Most of my predictions have been accurate. It's not just a bet game.

    I also oppose the slavery explanation for many reasons.

    Pompeii was a Latin speaking Roman colony that peaked in Early Imperial Rome before Nero was born. They did not have Greek or Semetic names.

    For Rome I am sure most of the shift is a cause of direct transplanted MENA population not a Southern Italian inspired shift. Even if Greeks of Italy turn out to be Cretan-like by the time of Hellenistic era it still does not prove the Imperial Rome hypothesis.
    I think it's a lot more likely the southern italians of the Hellenistic era were modern cretan/imperial like, not the iron age greeks. It goes without saying that southern italy had a far, far closer connection politically and ethnically and in terms of integration to Rome than greece proper or much less the middle east did.
    Last edited by Ahuwarhd; 10-17-2021 at 03:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yupi View Post
    What Greek/Semetic names?


    On a date that can be placed between 420 BC and 410 BC , the Lucanians took over the city, changing its name to Paistom . Apart from sporadic references in the sources, the war details of the Lucanian conquest are not known, probably because it must not have been a sudden conquest. It is a process that can be found in other locations (for example in the nearby Neapolis), where there was a slow, gradual, but constant infiltration of the Italic element, first recalled by the Greeks themselves for the most humble and servile jobs, and then became part of the social structure through trade and participation in city life, up to prevail and replace the political power of the city.

    Although Greek writers and poets report the Poseidoniati's regret for the lost freedom and for the decline of the city, archeology testifies that the period of splendor continued well beyond the Lucanian "conquest", with the production of painted vases (sometimes signed by artists of first order such as Assteas , Python and the Painter of Aphrodite ), with copiously frescoed tombs and precious grave goods. This wealth must have come largely from the fertility of the Sele plain, but also from the production itself of high quality objects, a conspicuous part of those trades established during the previous period. Not even the Greek character of the city disappeared completely, as attested by, in addition to the production of the painted vases, also the construction of the bouleuterion and the coinage, which preserved its Hellenic prerogatives
    .

    "It is not until the end of the fifth century BC that the city is mentioned, when according to Strabo, the city was conquered by the Lucanians. From the archaeological evidence it appears that the two cultures, Greek and Oscan, were able to thrive alongside one another.

    Many tomb paintings show horses and horse-racing, a passion of the Lucanian elites"


    Those temples are from Paestum/Poseidonia , good luck finding many East-Med profiles during the Hellenistic period there.


    Cuma (Greek colony of Campania) adopted Latin as an official language 200 years before Nero was born.
    I agree that """pure""" Italics survived fairly late, probably second first century BCE. And that early Greeks were probably mycenan like and not east med. But I was referring to the later period and the Satyricon. As I already stated, in the novel, which is set in Campania and it's dated first century CE, there are characters with semitic names, like Trimalchio, from Wikipedia: the name "Trimalchio" is formed from the Greek prefix τρις and the Semitic מלך (melech) in its occidental form Malchio or Malchus. The fundamental meaning of the root is "King", and the name "Trimalchio" would thus mean "Thrice King" or "greatest King".
    Last edited by Ariel90; 10-17-2021 at 02:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Euganeo View Post
    Several of these components are some way related to each other (and they are themselves a mix of older components). In many cases there were enough time for certain "divergence".
    Natufians could be modeled as 86% Dzudzuana and 14% of Taforalt, indeed, whereas Neolithic Anatolians and Dzudzuana would form a clade. Taforalt itself would have had some Dzudzuana (55%) - which would mean that Natufian derived from Dzudzuana by far -, and Dzudzuana in turn could be modeled as 72% Villabruna-like.
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...1/423079-1.pdf

    Agreed.

    I think I remember this new sample. I don't think all Steppe in modern Greeks came from Slavs, of course.
    I agree that Friulani are way closer to Venetians than to, say, Slovenians. The Friuliani certainly belong to North Italian cluster. That said, I think they did have some minor Slav influence, even if indirectly, and naturally more in Venezia Giulia than in Friuli itself. It could explain the R1a in Udine (almost 15%), very uncommon in other parts of Italy. Notice, too, that Northeast_Italy is the only Italian pop that gets this "extra-EHG" I referred to, perhaps a "Slavic sign" in this specific context, also found in Austrians, East Germans, Balkans etc.
    What do you mean Venetia Giulia ?

    The region is called Friuli-Venezia-Giulia............it comprises of 3 areas
    Friuli who speak Furlan and major city is Udine
    Venezia who speak Venetian and major city is Pordenone
    Giulia which means the Julian alps ............the main city is now Trieste , it was Gorizia..........but Trieste in History was never under Venice even though they spoke Venetian ..........it came under Italy after WW2

    The Austrian rule in North-East Italy 1820-1870 ( after the Congress of Vienna ) is when Pordenone was moved from being under Veneto region to Friuli region as the Austrian saw Veneto region far to huge , stretching as far west as Verona.

    The Slovenian elements is mostly under the Giulian part ( the alpine area )................but as I know my ancestors where involved in their laboratories ( factories of under 20 people ) that young 16yo slovenian girls where prized away by the austrians from their families and given to these laboratories to work and when coming of age between 17-18 where encouraged to find local men to marry ( system called El Fio ) ...................I guess the story of Austrians sending slovenian men to Galicia poland or slovak to defend the empire might be true ......Austrians had some issues with the Slovenians
    Last edited by vettor; 10-17-2021 at 03:59 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Euganeo View Post
    Several of these components are some way related to each other (and they are themselves a mix of older components). In many cases there were enough time for certain "divergence".
    Natufians could be modeled as 86% Dzudzuana and 14% of Taforalt, indeed, whereas Neolithic Anatolians and Dzudzuana would form a clade. Taforalt itself would have had some Dzudzuana (55%) - which would mean that Natufian derived from Dzudzuana by far -, and Dzudzuana in turn could be modeled as 72% Villabruna-like.
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...1/423079-1.pdf

    Agreed.

    I think I remember this new sample. I don't think all Steppe in modern Greeks came from Slavs, of course.
    I agree that Friulani are way closer to Venetians than to, say, Slovenians. The Friuliani certainly belong to North Italian cluster. That said, I think they did have some minor Slav influence, even if indirectly, and naturally more in Venezia Giulia than in Friuli itself. It could explain the R1a in Udine (almost 15%), very uncommon in other parts of Italy. Notice, too, that Northeast_Italy is the only Italian pop that gets this "extra-EHG" I referred to, perhaps a "Slavic sign" in this specific context, also found in Austrians, East Germans, Balkans etc.
    I'd forgotten about the 72% villabruna-like model. That's something I should look at again.

    In regards to the Friulani (or Forojuliani as their ancient name was) I think it's not a good method of modelling both EHG and Yamnaya as potential source populations. It's similar to modelling anatolian neolithic with Neolithic-moroccan as potential sources - you're modelling effectively two populations with large amounts of the same ancestral genome which will always cause bad guesses for population histories in the calculator. The reality of the fact is that bronze age italians exhibited really pretty widely varying amounts of EHG ancestry and assuming that 100% of the indo europeans that ultimately impacted italy by the bronze age held EHG portions in the exact same proportions as samara yamnaya while drawing the conclusion that an extra 2.5% EHG is something that came later doesn't make much sense to me.

    I very strongly agree with most of what you've written outside of this however so I think we're on pretty good terms as far as population models and ideas go.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    I agree that """pure""" Italics survived fairly late, probably second first century BCE. And that early Greeks were probably mycenan like and not east med. But I was referring to the later period and the Satyricon. As I already stated, in the novel, which is set in Campania and it's dated first century CE, there are characters with semitic names, like Trimalchio, from Wikipedia: the name "Trimalchio" is formed from the Greek prefix τρις and the Semitic מלך (melech) in its occidental form Malchio or Malchus. The fundamental meaning of the root is "King", and the name "Trimalchio" would thus mean "Thrice King" or "greatest King".
    You can't really define what was genetically "italic" in the ancient world until you know the genome of all of iron age/roman italy. The verdict is still out on that one. I agree however the greeks were probably mycenean like at this time for the most part.

    As for the Satyricon, "Trimalchio" is a fictional character and not a real person. The name is joke reference to his status of being a wealthy freed slave who obtained his riches by devious means. Racially, the Romans and Greeks sterotyped levantine populations as servile-like in their demeanor and easily enslaved by many nations, but also a witty and cunning people, so using a semetic basis for the name of a fictional trickster-slave turned wealthy while adding on the suffix "king" was part of the humor. It's quite a far shot to state that most italians were using semetic or greek names based on that. From the achaeology, we know the specifically greek cities in magna graecia were nearly all billingual - speaking both oscan and greek. The greeks write that the opici (derogatory slang for a rustic italian, usually but not always oscan) were strong enough to force their cities to pay tribute early on, however it was also common to see them working menial labor jobs as well within their cities. Later of course these cities were totally subsumed by oscan conquests.
    Last edited by Ahuwarhd; 10-17-2021 at 06:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    What do you mean Venetia Giulia ?

    The region is called Friuli-Venezia-Giulia............it comprises of 3 areas
    Friuli who speak Furlan and major city is Udine
    Venezia who speak Venetian and major city is Pordenone
    Giulia which means the Julian alps ............the main city is now Trieste , it was Gorizia..........but Trieste in History was never under Venice even though they spoke Venetian ..........it came under Italy after WW2

    The Austrian rule in North-East Italy 1820-1870 ( after the Congress of Vienna ) is when Pordenone was moved from being under Veneto region to Friuli region as the Austrian saw Veneto region far to huge , stretching as far west as Verona.

    The Slovenian elements is mostly under the Giulian part ( the alpine area )................but as I know my ancestors where involved in their laboratories ( factories of under 20 people ) that young 16yo slovenian girls where prized away by the austrians from their families and given to these laboratories to work and when coming of age between 17-18 where encouraged to find local men to marry ( system called El Fio ) ...................I guess the story of Austrians sending slovenian men to Galicia poland or slovak to defend the empire might be true ......Austrians had some issues with the Slovenians
    Can you elaborate more on this story? El filo reads like spanish, not italian...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahuwarhd View Post
    Can you elaborate more on this story? El filo reads like spanish, not italian...
    Venetian has different letters its language like J and K in their alphabet ( Italian alphabet does not contain J or K unless they use a borrowed word ...............like Juventus ( a latin term meaning young boys/ones )

    EL FIO (il filò)

    the Venetian word was il filo as above.....slang was El Fio

    Il filò era un’occasione propizia per l’incontro dei giovani, per gli approcci amorosi. La ragazza corteggiata riservava ed offriva la sedia al suo favorito. Allorché il rapporto di"ventava cosa seria, i genitori dei due figlioli, se propensi a tale incontro, davano la loro adesione ed il fidanzamento diveniva ufficiale3.

    through google translate
    The filò was a favorable occasion for the meeting of young people, for loving approaches. The courted girl reserved and offered the chair to her favorite. When the relationship "became a serious matter, the parents of the two children, if inclined to such an encounter, gave their agreement and the engagement became official
    Last edited by vettor; 10-17-2021 at 08:59 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    The Boii settled south of the PO river......Bologna the city is credited to them

    then we have further south the Senones arrived 400BC and where wiped out by the Romans by 100BC
    In 400 BCE, they crossed the Alps and, driving out the Umbrians, settled on the east coast of Italy. Their territory spanned from Forlì to Ancona and Terni, ..........................

    the other who arrived at that time was the Cenomani who eventually settled next to modern Verona
    acc. to strabon (in late rep. - early principate) the only ones that survived* the roman war (two hundred years) in the cisalpina area were the ligurians and insubrians; those are the only ones all others (beg. with the senones) were either ἐξέφθειραν completely anhilited (cf. other sources) or ἐξελαύνω ult. driven out by the conquering romans

    and maybe these survivors still play a role
    if it turns out that the four 'southern' samples in the upcoming geary paper are indeed locals (augusta taurinorum) then these would look like the least near east shifted romans in italy sofar (?east-med. romans + ligurians) hovering around where SZ32, SZ36 and SZ43 plot


    *
     
    οἱ δ᾽ ἐντὸς τοῦ Πάδου κατέχουσι μὲν ἅπασαν ὅσην ἐγκυκλοῦται τὰ Ἀπέννινα ὄρη πρὸς τὰ Ἄλπεια μέχρι Γενούας καὶ τῶν Σαβάτων. κατεῖχον δὲ Βόιοι καὶ Λίγυες καὶ Σένονες καὶ Γαιζᾶται τὸ πλέον: τῶν δὲ Βοΐων ἐξελαθέντων, ἀφανισθέντων δὲ καὶ τῶν Γαιζατῶν καὶ Σενόνων, λείπεται τὰ Λιγυστικὰ φῦλα καὶ τῶν Ῥωμαίων αἱ ἀποικίαι
    Cispadana comprehends all that country enclosed between the Apennines and the Alps as far as Genoa and the Vada-Sabbatorum. The greater part was inhabited by the Boii, the Ligurians, the Senones, and Gæsatæ; but after the depopulation of the Boii, and the destruction of the Gæsatæ and Senones, the Ligurian tribes and the Roman colonies alone remained

    τὸ μὲν οὖν ἀρχαῖον, ὥσπερ ἔφην, ὑπὸ Κελτῶν περιῳκεῖτο τῶν πλείστων ὁ ποταμός. μέγιστα δ᾽ ἦν τῶν Κελτῶν ἔθνη Βόιοι καὶ Ἴνσουβροι καὶ οἱ τὴν Ῥωμαίων ποτὲ ἐξ ἐφόδου καταλαβόντες Σένονες μετὰ Γαισατῶν. τούτους μὲν οὖν ἐξέφθειραν ὕστερον τελέως Ῥωμαῖοι, τοὺς δὲ Βοΐους ἐξήλασαν ἐκ τῶν τόπων. μεταστάντες δ᾽ εἰς τοὺς περὶ τὸν Ἴστρον τόπους μετὰ Ταυρίσκων ᾤκουν πολεμοῦντες πρὸς Δακούς, ἕως ἀπώλοντο πανεθνεί: τὴν δὲ χώραν οὖσαν τῆς Ἰλλυρίδος μηλόβοτον τοῖς περιοικοῦσι κατέλιπον. Ἴνσουβροι δὲ καὶ νῦν εἰσί. Μεδιολάνιον δ᾽ ἔσχον μητρόπολιν, πάλαι μὲν κώμην (ἅπαντες γὰρ ᾤκουν κωμηδόν), νῦν δ᾽ ἀξιόλογον πόλιν, πέραν τοῦ Πάδου, συνάπτουσάν πως ταῖς Ἄλπεσι
    Formerly, as we have said, the district next this river was chiefly inhabited by Kelts. The principal nations of these Kelts were the Boii, the Insubri, and the Senones and Gæsatæ, who in one of their incursions took possession of Rome. The Romans afterwards entirely extirpated these latter, and expelled the Boii from their country, who then migrated to the land about the Danube, where they dwelt with the Taurisci, and warred against the Dacians until the whole nation was destroyed; and they left to the surrounding tribes this sheep-pasturing district of Illyria. The Insubri still exist, their metropolis is Mediolanum, which formerly was a village, for they all dwelt in villages, but is now a considerable city, beyond the Po, and almost touching the Alps

    καὶ νῦν Ῥωμαῖοι μέν εἰσιν ἅπαντες, οὐδὲν δ᾽ ἧττον Ὄμβροι τε τινὲς λέγονται καὶ Τυρρηνοί, καθάπερ Ἑνετοὶ καὶ Λίγυες καὶ Ἴνσουβροι
    And although now they are all Romans, they are not the less distinguished, some by the names of Ombri and Tyrrheni, others by those of Heneti, Ligurians, and Insubri
    GENO2.0 51SEURO 19WCEURO 13SCANDINAVIA 5ASIAMINOR 4EEURO 4GB/IRELAND 3ARABIA MYORIGINS 26ITA.PEN. 13GREECE&BALKANS 12SARDINIA 18GREATBRITAIN 14IRELAND 10C.EUROPE 8SCANDINAVIA DNA.LAND 49NWEURO 27SEURO 13MED.ISLANDER 11SARDINIAN MYHERITAGE 51.8NWEURO 33.2ITALIAN 7.9GREEK/S.ITALY 7.1BALKAN GENCOVE 29NITALY 19EMED 15NBRITISLES 12SWEURO 10NCEURO 9SCANDINAVIA 6NEEURO GENEPLAZA 54.4NWEURO 37.6GRE/ALB 5.6WASIAN 2.4SWASIA LIVINGDNA 57.4S.GER 3.3NE.GER 25.8N.ITA 5S.ITA 4.3TUSCANY 2.5CYPRUS 1.7AEGEAN

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