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Thread: The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2,000-year archeogenomic time transe

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    I do not understand what you mean. The EEF ylines where totally replaced and managed to come back with the migrations connected with the orientalizing horizon?
    In most regions in Europe (not every region) the EEF Y-chromosome haplogroups were replaced in the Bronze Age by the Steppe Y-chromosome haplogroups. And as is shown by the work of David Reich's group, the Bronze Age replacement in Spain and the British Islands were not friendly, and possibly involved genocide.

    This means that the leadership in central and southern Europe (including central Italy) was transferred from the EEF elite into the Steppe elite. This could have happened partly with genocide, and partly with deportation of the EEF population into the Aegean / Eastern Mediterranean regions.

    And finally in the Early Iron Age, the leadership in central Italy was transferred from the Steppe elite (Celtic, Italic/Latins) into the Aegean / Eastern Mediterranean elite (Etruscans / Tyrrhenians / Pelasgians / Sea Peoples), whom share a common Anatolia_N ancestry (from the Neolithic period of Turkey) with the EEF remnants. In contrast to the Bronze age transmission of leadership, the Early Iron Age transmission did not involve genocide, instead involved the mixing of the two groups.

    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    There is no H2 among WHG....H2 is EEF.
    On this spreadsheet, the "Brillenhohle" individual from 12.830 BCE is shown to belong to "H2".

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    Quote Originally Posted by manesh View Post
    In most regions in Europe (not every region) the EEF Y-chromosome haplogroups were replaced in the Bronze Age by the Steppe Y-chromosome haplogroups. And as is shown by the work of David Reich's group, the Bronze Age replacement in Spain and the British Islands were not friendly, and possibly involved genocide.

    This means that the leadership in central and southern Europe (including central Italy) was transferred from the EEF elite into the Steppe elite. This could have happened partly with genocide, and partly with deportation of the EEF population into the Aegean / Eastern Mediterranean regions.

    And finally in the Early Iron Age, the leadership in central Italy was transferred from the Steppe elite (Celtic, Italic/Latins) into the Aegean / Eastern Mediterranean elite (Etruscans / Tyrrhenians / Pelasgians / Sea Peoples), whom share a common Anatolia_N ancestry (from the Neolithic period of Turkey) with the EEF remnants. In contrast to the Bronze age transmission of leadership, the Early Iron Age transmission did not involve genocide, instead involved the mixing of the two groups.



    On this spreadsheet, the "Brillenhohle" individual from 12.830 BCE is shown to belong to "H2".
    I'm not sure how deportations in Bronze Age Europe over long distances could even happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Granary View Post
    I'm not sure how deportations in Bronze Age Europe over long distances could even happen.
    The Etruscans / Tyrrhenians / Pelasgians / Sea Peoples were seafaring people.
    So, the distance between Central Italy and the Aegean region is not a "long distance".

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    latest documentary I saw, is the bulk of farmers in central europe and further north originate from 100% hunters , who grew wheat to make beer to drink at their feasts and everyday life.....over time, more changed over as they began to settle.........
    That documentary is wrong, as shown very clearly by ancient DNA. Neolithic Anatolian genes reached as far north as Scandinavia and Britain. They mixed with hunter-gatherers and during the Late Neolithic there was an increase in WHG, but it never again reached anything close to the pre-Neolithic levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    I have never been happy with classifying haplogroups as either farmers or hunters
    One can easily classify some haplogroups in Europe (hunter-gatherers, farmers, pastoralists) based on when they got there and spread. This last one is always overlooked. For example, I have seen debates about the origin of E-V13 where most will claim it has been in Europe since the Neolithic based on a single 10 year old sample from Spain that used a small number of STRs. Even if we take that sample as valid (call me skeptical), all haplogroups in Iberia were replaced by R-P312 during the Bell Beaker period and that E-V13 may have been a dead-end. So, what gets classified as a European "Neolithic" marker likely expanded in Iberia with Romans. We even have haplogroup J showing up in steppe hunter-gatherers, but again, it is meaningless if it died out there and was replaced by R-L23 and R1a. Truth of the matter is that most Western Europeans owe their "farmer" Y-haplogroups to Romans and maybe even to the strong continued cultural dependency on the Catholic church for 1000 years after Roman Empire's collapse.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 06-20-2021 at 04:50 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Truth of the matter is that most Western Europeans owe their "farmer" Y-haplogroups to Romans and maybe even to the strong continued cultural dependency on the Catholic church for 1000 years after Roman Empire's collapse.
    Is there any evidence for that? If that's true, shouldn't a big chunk of Western European R1b also be of Roman origin?

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    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    Is there any evidence for that? If that's true, shouldn't a big chunk of Western European R1b also be of Roman origin?
    If the pre-Roman studies in places like Iberia, France and Britain show only R1b, and then these farmer haplogroups show up during the Roman period, isn't that evidence enough? And yes, some R-U152 subclades (not all) will have expanded with Romans, but obviously R-L21 was already in Britain, R-DF27 was Iberia, R-U152 was already in Switzerland etc. before the Romans.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    If the pre-Roman studies in places like Iberia, France and Britain show only R1b, and then these farmer haplogroups show up during the Roman period, isn't that evidence enough? And yes, some R-U152 subclades (not all) will have expanded with Romans, but obviously R-L21 was already in Britain, R-DF27 was Iberia, R-U152 was already in Switzerland etc. before the Romans.
    There's a British paper coming up that shows farmer ancestry increased post-Bell Beaker (pre-Roman) in Britain, maybe farmer haplogroups did as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    There's a British paper coming up that shows farmer ancestry increased post-Bell Beaker (pre-Roman) in Britain, maybe farmer haplogroups did as well.
    We already have post-Bell Beaker samples and we know the Y-haplogroups didn't change. Automsomal DNA may have become more EEF shifted because the continental Bell Beakers had more of it.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    If the pre-Roman studies in places like Iberia, France and Britain show only R1b, and then these farmer haplogroups show up during the Roman period, isn't that evidence enough?
    Do we even have enough samples from post-Bell Beaker to pre-Roman times to come to that conclusion?
    I do not disagree that, at least in Iberia and (southern) France much of the (in general comparatively few) farmer lineages will have arrived in the Roman period. But I do not think we can yet conclude that farmer lineages were basically entirely replaced with/by the Bell Beakers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chnodomar View Post
    Do we even have enough samples from post-Bell Beaker to pre-Roman times to come to that conclusion?
    I do not disagree that, at least in Iberia and (southern) France much of the (in general comparatively few) farmer lineages will have arrived in the Roman period. But I do not think we can yet conclude that farmer lineages were basically entirely replaced with/by the Bell Beakers.
    We never have enough, but outside of Italy, sans an I1 Iron Age sample from France and an I2 from an Iron Age sample from Spain, they all remain R1b. R1b in Britain remained, but I would not be surprised if some I2 survived. Typical EEF lineages look like they were 100% replaced in places outside of Italy, Sardinia and the Balkans.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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