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Thread: The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2,000-year archeogenomic time transe

  1. #1921
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    in addendum to #1897
    there is also an ADMIXTURE (K11) analysis in the paper

     


    this indeed shows no WHG in modern central italians but, in comparison to roman period, an increase of steppe admixture (<20 to >25) and here a decrease of iranian admixture (>20 to <20) while ANF stays the same ~50; thats admixture as for qpAdm there is a data_file in raveani et al that is loaded with such models (four way five way) for all italian clusters and a whole bunch of fits; not sure though if qpAdm is best used for such admixture proprotions rather than just finding the best (most probable) source of an admixture event
    Thanks for your answers. So, in your opinion, should we trust ADMIXTURE runs more than qpAdm for the exact proportions of each type of ancestry? Also, why do you think there's no "blue" component in modern Tuscans even though all of WHG, Yamnaya and Iran_N samples carry it?

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  3. #1922
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    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    Thanks for your answers. So, in your opinion, should we trust ADMIXTURE runs more than qpAdm for the exact proportions of each type of ancestry? Also, why do you think there's no "blue" component in modern Tuscans even though all of WHG, Yamnaya and Iran_N samples carry it?
    id say both are trustable its just diff. methods
    but in that regard qpAdm can spit out a whole bunch of results leaving you with the choice of which one you like best while ADMIXTURE gives you one result and one only; when it comes to specifying the admixture event qpAdm seems the best as it can specify which source exact e.g. in the sardinian paper when taking nuragic_sar in the outgroups it fails the models indicating youll need actual nuragic and not any EEF proxy while ADMIXTURE would have just shown you ANF/EEF and leave you to wonder about the exact source but beyond a three-way model qpAdm seems to get very interpretational itself

    maybe the WHG dis. in modern samples as such a distal source isnt picked up anymore and hiding in the more proximate sources but ill be dead honest with you i wouldnt know; this is yet another G25 model (vahaduo style) with distal sources
     
    Last edited by alexfritz; 10-20-2021 at 10:35 AM.
    GENO2.0 51SEURO 19WCEURO 13SCANDINAVIA 5ASIAMINOR 4EEURO 4GB/IRELAND 3ARABIA MYORIGINS 26ITA.PEN. 13GREECE&BALKANS 12SARDINIA 18GREATBRITAIN 14IRELAND 10C.EUROPE 8SCANDINAVIA DNA.LAND 49NWEURO 27SEURO 13MED.ISLANDER 11SARDINIAN MYHERITAGE 51.8NWEURO 33.2ITALIAN 7.9GREEK/S.ITALY 7.1BALKAN GENCOVE 29NITALY 19EMED 15NBRITISLES 12SWEURO 10NCEURO 9SCANDINAVIA 6NEEURO GENEPLAZA 54.4NWEURO 37.6GRE/ALB 5.6WASIAN 2.4SWASIA LIVINGDNA 57.4S.GER 3.3NE.GER 25.8N.ITA 5S.ITA 4.3TUSCANY 2.5CYPRUS 1.7AEGEAN

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  5. #1923
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    Beware.

    The highly eccentric and eye-wateringly anti-Semitic GIOIELLO from Molgen Genetic Genealogy is stalking and mocking the posts on this site.

    He thinks Unk Kadath is the poster Agamemnon (sic!)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    Beware.

    The highly eccentric and eye-wateringly anti-Semitic GIOIELLO from Molgen Genetic Genealogy is stalking and mocking the posts on this site.

    He thinks Unk Kadath is the poster Agamemnon (sic!)
    If you ignore them they can't stalk you...

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    Most of us do ignore him.

    There are .....TWO regular contributors to the Molgen Genetic Genealogy site.

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    Has anybody submitted any of the samples to Yfull?
    My Y Line: J2a-L210>Z489>Z482>Y15222>Y15245

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36>Y156527

    Great Grandparent (Maternal Grandfather's Mother's line) Y: R1b-U152>L2

    Great Grandparent (Maternal Grandmother's Mother's line) Y: I2-P78>A427>S23612>Y6396

    Other Y lines Confirmed: 3x GG on Maternal: J2a-S25258>SK1336, 3x GG on Maternal: J2a-M67, 4x GG on Maternal: R1b-PF7562, 5x GG on Maternal: E-V13, 5x GG on Maternal: R2-L266, 5x GG on Paternal: E-M183, 5x GG on Maternal: I2-M26

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  11. #1927
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    If you ignore them they can't stalk you...
    Gioiello doesn't even know that CASCIO is a hamlet in the Garfagnana area and the name come from the personal name Cassius via the medieval Cassio. He thinks it comes from the Latin word for "cheese".
    Last edited by Cascio; 10-21-2021 at 07:32 AM.

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    Republic of Venice Italy Veneto Italy Tuscany Italy 1861-1946 European Union Italy
    The CAM002 sample (780-520 cal BCE, Siena province) has likely Alpine or Gaulish ancestry.

    Distance to: CAM002:CAM002
    0.02673806 French_Occitanie
    0.02699030 French_Alsace
    0.02764494 Swiss_German
    0.02767819 French_Auvergne
    0.02878397 French_Nord
    0.03092881 Belgian
    0.03112351 Spanish_Barcelones
    0.03279041 French_Paris
    0.03356529 Swiss_French
    0.03423292 French_Provence
    0.03481714 French_Seine-Maritime
    0.03584212 Spanish_Penedes
    0.03693122 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
    0.03695849 French_Pas-de-Calais
    0.03719674 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
    0.03742574 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
    0.03756275 Spanish_Mallorca
    0.03799668 Spanish_Lleida
    0.03808556 Italian_Northeast
    0.03874550 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
    0.03880974 Spanish_Girona
    0.03882195 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    0.03916024 Spanish_Cataluna
    0.03947934 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.03954039 Spanish_Valencia

    That's a PCA with CAM002


    I think it would be interesting to see samples from Cisalpine Gaul, maybe we are underestimating Gallic contribution in moderns (also considering the Gallo-Romance-Italic ""Sprachbund"")
    Last edited by Ariel90; 10-21-2021 at 09:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    Slavery in the pre-imperial era was a social condition. Etruscans and Greeks practiced mass slavery, with no evidence of ethnic diversity between slaves and free men. Rome expandend in the middle east mostly after Pompey and generally after Augustus. During the third servile wars, the three leaders were a Thracian and two Gauls. Apparently Pompeii was similar to Central\South Italians in hellenistic or early Roman era. Late Daunians seem to be shifted towards Central Italians, the top of the cluster almost touch with moderns. Prenestini outlier and some early Imperial samples appear to be a mix of Greek/Anatolia and Italic. I think the evidence is out there, that people South of Rome (and probably Rome itself) were somewhat shifted "South" in the later Iron Age, mostly due to aegean and caucasian/anatolia admix, similar to what can be found in modern Greeks. Most of the levantine admix came later during the early imperial period, after the servile wars when slavery became less prominent and more urban, and it's mostly limited to Central\Southern Italy. One early Imperial sample, RMPM111 seems to have no levantine admix (run in the spoiler), but less WHG and more CHG\Anatolia. Provincial Romans seem to be similar to South Italians, sometimes to North Italians, they can be found in Roman\medieval Hungary and probably in other places in the future based on some preprints (Serbia, Greece).

     
    Target: ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR111
    Distance: 3.1515% / 0.03151471
    39.2 ITA_Sicily_EBA
    28.4 ITA_Etruscan
    17.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
    10.6 GRC_Mycenaean
    4.2 SWE_IA
    0.0 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    0.0 ITA_Sicily_LBA
    0.0 ITA_Sicily_MBA
    0.0 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
    0.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
    About Daunians, there are Hellenistic samples that are more Sardinian just like there are pre-Hellenistic samples that lean more Central Italy. So it's a mixed bunch.

    I believe Ancient Italians had regional differences before the Greek and East Med admixture. I suspect for South Italians to be more Daunian-like than Etruscan.

    Are we ever going to get see the Daunians in G25 though?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    The CAM002 sample (780-520 cal BCE, Siena province) has likely Alpine or Gaulish ancestry.

    Distance to: CAM002:CAM002
    0.02673806 French_Occitanie
    0.02699030 French_Alsace
    0.02764494 Swiss_German
    0.02767819 French_Auvergne
    0.02878397 French_Nord
    0.03092881 Belgian
    0.03112351 Spanish_Barcelones
    0.03279041 French_Paris
    0.03356529 Swiss_French
    0.03423292 French_Provence
    0.03481714 French_Seine-Maritime
    0.03584212 Spanish_Penedes
    0.03693122 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
    0.03695849 French_Pas-de-Calais
    0.03719674 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
    0.03742574 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
    0.03756275 Spanish_Mallorca
    0.03799668 Spanish_Lleida
    0.03808556 Italian_Northeast
    0.03874550 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
    0.03880974 Spanish_Girona
    0.03882195 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    0.03916024 Spanish_Cataluna
    0.03947934 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.03954039 Spanish_Valencia

    That's a PCA with CAM002


    I think it would be interesting to see samples from Cisalpine Gaul, maybe we are underestimating Gallic contribution in moderns (also considering the Gallo-Romance-Italic ""Sprachbund"")


    These samples with "central european" profiles were most likely gallic : We see the presence of gallic burials in the emilian plain around Bologna (Casalecchio, Marzabotto), in Bologna itself and in the Marche region (Montefortino di Arcevia, Filottrano). We also see from the VIth century onwards gallic names in many etruscan inscriptions from Volsini (Katacina, Vercena) and Todi (Ahal Trutitis) most probably mercenaries and many of these mercenaries were also used in the Latium during the IVth century bc (Tibur, preneste, etc)

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