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Thread: The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2,000-year archeogenomic time transe

  1. #1931
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cabaon View Post
    These samples with "central european" profiles were most likely gallic : We see the presence of gallic burials in the emilian plain around Bologna (Casalecchio, Marzabotto), in Bologna itself and in the Marche region (Montefortino di Arcevia, Filottrano). We also see from the VIth century onwards gallic names in many etruscan inscriptions from Volsini (Katacina, Vercena) and Todi (Ahal Trutitis) most probably mercenaries and many of these mercenaries were also used in the Latium during the IVth century bc (Tibur, preneste, etc)
    We need to be cautious here.

    Was CAM002 buried in the Etruscan manner or with Gallic panoply?

    The same proviso holds for the Volsinii and Tuder/Todi examples.

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  3. #1932
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    We need to be cautious here.

    Was CAM002 buried in the Etruscan manner or with Gallic panoply?

    The same proviso holds for the Volsinii and Tuder/Todi examples.
    I suppose there was no way to know it or else they would have underlined it and proposed a gallic origin but we do see for example mixed unions gallic - etruscan among Boii (monte bibele for example) where we find etruscan names in gallic burials. As for Volsinii/Todi it was only inscriptions as far as I know.

    What would you propose as an alternative for these northern profiles ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cabaon View Post
    I suppose there was no way to know it or else they would have underlined it and proposed a gallic origin but we do see for example mixed unions gallic - etruscan among Boii (monte bibele for example) where we find etruscan names in gallic burials. As for Volsinii/Todi it was only inscriptions as far as I know.

    What would you propose as an alternative for these northern profiles ?
    Well, Unk Kadath's post #1920 has a lot of interesting debating points.

    We have to be cautious about terminology.

    I would prefer lingiustic or cultural terms terms like "Gallic" or "Latin( + Faliscan)" or "Osco-Umbrian" because terms like "Celtic" or "Italic" are too vague or generic or disputed.

    R1b-U152 is certainly the major Y-dna for Iron Age Etruria and Latium and must reflect male lineages from areas in or around the Alps while mtdna in Italy is not uniform but certainly a lot less regionally variable than Italian Y dna.

    It's a case of NW Italy and Tuscany versus much of southern and eastern Italy when it comes to the patrilineal aspects.
    Last edited by Cascio; 10-23-2021 at 01:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    Well, Unk Kadath's post #1920 has a lot of interesting debating points.

    We have to be cautious about terminology.

    I would prefer lingiustic or cultural terms terms like "Gallic" or "Latin( + Faliscan)" or "Osco-Umbrian" because terms like "Celtic" or "Italic" are too vague or generic or disputed.

    R1b-U152 is certainly the major Y-dna for Iron Age Etruria and Latium and must reflect male lineages from areas in or around the Alps while mtdna in Italy is not uniform but certainly a lot less regionally variable than Italian Y dna.

    It's a case of NW Italy and Tuscany versus much of southern and eastern Italy when it comes to the patrilineal aspects.
    If G2a is some sort of key to a Rhaetian-Etruscan non-U152 substrate that survived all the way up to Austria, perhaps this is just a Rhaetian?
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  9. #1935
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yupi View Post
    About Daunians, there are Hellenistic samples that are more Sardinian just like there are pre-Hellenistic samples that lean more Central Italy. So it's a mixed bunch.

    I believe Ancient Italians had regional differences before the Greek and East Med admixture. I suspect for South Italians to be more Daunian-like than Etruscan.

    Are we ever going to get see the Daunians in G25 though?
    I doubt that.........there are too many "southerns" on different forums............ that do not want to know about the North Balkan Daunians ( ancient Croatians lands, .....Dalmatia, Liburnia, Istria areas )


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  10. #1936
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    the premise that the near eastern shift was caused by slavery is not dead at all
    it is just a matter of acknowledging the nature of said slavery (as described in the primary sources) as a means of migration (debt-slavery), the roman manumssion system (libertini) and the timeframe it scaled up (second half second century bc/bce); there is no coincidence that the shift that disolved iron age cluster points directly to the hellenistic kingdoms (chiefly anatolia) the very location the primary sources list as a massive source

    the only thing that is now dead in the water is the idea that 'the shift' caused a two class society in imperial rome, top class iron agers and low class east-meds., this paper shows that 'the shift' included all stratae of imperial society and they are all east-meds.

     
    The other major cluster (44% of the samples from Viminacium between 1-250 CE) is represented by individuals who projected towards ancient and present-day Eastern Mediterranean groups in PCA (Figure 1A), close to ancient individuals from Rome during Imperial times 3. Their ancestry can be modelled as deriving deeply from Chalcolithic Western Anatolian groups (Figure 2; Supplementary section 12.2), and we refer to this cluster as the Near Eastern-related cluster. The same signal of arrivals individuals with Anatolian/Near Eastern ancestral origins is also evident in Rome during the same period


    since viminatium is to be viewed in a military context (legionsfort) LEG VII (claudia)
    i could imagine the romans from the elaborate burials (sarcophagi) being the centuriones or even tribuni while the rest (wood/brick) the caligati; such burials (wood/brick) are found in abundance in other legionsforts such as deva victrix (chester) or castra regina (regensburg); the dating of the NE cluster is placed, per only one NE sample with a radiocarbon date, to 124-228calCE

    overall i think the roman profile (imperial era) is a done deal (btw. their roman cluster (based on the stanford smaples) incl. 18/19 east-meds. 11/12 meds. and 6/13 near-easts (those by cyprus))
    hopefully this thread's paper will also get published soon aswell
    "
    The Second Servile War (104–101) was led by Athenio in the western part of the island and by Salvius Tryphon in the east. This war was terminated by Manius Aquillius.[38] Both wars are described by Diodorus Siculus in terms which suggest that there were massive numbers of slaves from the eastern Mediterranean in Sicily (c.200,000), with significant economic and social implications for the island."

    "The First Servile War of 135–132 BC was a slave rebellion against the Roman Republic, which took place in Sicily. The revolt started in 135 when Eunus, a slave from Syria who claimed to be a prophet, captured the city of Enna in the middle of the island with 400 fellow slaves. Soon after, Cleon, a Cilician slave, stormed the city of Agrigentum on the southern coast, slaughtered the population, then joined Eunus' army and became his military commander. Eunus even proclaimed himself king, under the name of Antiochus, after the Seleucid emperors of his native Syria."

    Notice how Sicilian Greek historian calls them Syrian and Cicilian and not Greek.

    I am now sceptical whenever East Med was formed in Southern Italy before Imperial Rome. But I still stand by it, let's wait and see. I have other interesting sources about Syracuse, Venosa and Pompeii.
    Last edited by Yupi; 10-31-2021 at 12:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    About Venosa from Wikipedia Italy: "Con l'età imperiale, nei primi periodi dell'avvento del Cristianesimo (intorno al 70 d.C.), si insedị a Venosa una delle prime comunità ebraiche in Italia, che riusć a integrarsi con la popolazione locale." My translation: "With the Imperial age, in the first years of Christianity, (around 70 BCE), in Venosa was established one of the first Jewish community in Italy, which managed to assimilate\integrate with the local population."
    It also says Romans brought new colonists in Venosa during 43BC.

  13. #1938
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    The problem, once again, is the lack of the "Italic profile" from 0CE (and maybe before) onward, in Italy or elsewhere. We have to imagine a reasonable time frame for a massive scale migration of people from a distant land. I think that Magna Graecia and the hellenization or Rome during the late republic are going to be the key.
    Those Italic people were augmented with pristine Middle Eastern input and disappeared. Like in Tuscany.

  14. #1939
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yupi View Post
    It also says Romans brought new colonists in Venosa during 43BC.
    I wonder where these new romans came from ....because Venosa was taken in the 3rd roman-samnite war which ended 290BC

    291 BC – Lucius Postimius Megellus seized Venusia, the chief town of the Hirpini Samnites.
    290 BC – Roman operations to mop up last pockets of Samnite resistance; end of the war.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Yupi View Post
    "
    The Second Servile War (104–101) was led by Athenio in the western part of the island and by Salvius Tryphon in the east. This war was terminated by Manius Aquillius.[38] Both wars are described by Diodorus Siculus in terms which suggest that there were massive numbers of slaves from the eastern Mediterranean in Sicily (c.200,000), with significant economic and social implications for the island."

    "The First Servile War of 135–132 BC was a slave rebellion against the Roman Republic, which took place in Sicily. The revolt started in 135 when Eunus, a slave from Syria who claimed to be a prophet, captured the city of Enna in the middle of the island with 400 fellow slaves. Soon after, Cleon, a Cilician slave, stormed the city of Agrigentum on the southern coast, slaughtered the population, then joined Eunus' army and became his military commander. Eunus even proclaimed himself king, under the name of Antiochus, after the Seleucid emperors of his native Syria."

    Notice how Sicilian Greek historian calls them Syrian and Cicilian and not Greek.

    I am now sceptical whenever East Med was formed in Southern Italy before Imperial Rome. But I still stand by it, let's wait and see. I have other interesting sources about Syracuse, Venosa and Pompeii.
    This wikipedia article you quoted is a bit confused and incorrect. Despite the fact that they didn't actually source Diodorus in the appendix I managed to find the passages in which Diodorus discusses both servile wars. At no point does he claim mass importation for Sicily's slave population, nor does he give any estimates for numbers of slaves on the island. He gives individual accounts for the origins of 2 or 3 leaders but that's really about it. The 200,000 number comes from his description of the size of Enus' army after they had seized major cities and enslaved the previously free inhabitants.

    " 17 G # In the mean time, a Cilician called Cleon instigated another defection of the slaves, and now all were hoping that this unruly rabble would come to blows one with another, and so Sicily would be rid of them through their mutual slaughters and destruction of each other. But contrary to all men's hopes and expectations, they joined forces together. Cleon followed the commands of Eunus in every respect, and served his prince as general, having five thousand of his own soldiers. Thirty days had now passed since the first beginning of this rebellion: 18 # and presently the slaves fought a battle with Lucius Hypsaeus, who had come from Rome and commanded eight thousand Sicilians. In this fight the rebels won the day; they were then twenty thousand in number, and very soon afterwards their army increased to two hundred thousand men. And although they fought against the Romans themselves, yet they often came off as conquerors, and were very seldom defeated.

    19 G When news of this spread abroad, a revolt was started at Rome by one hundred and fifty slaves, who conspired against the government; similarly in Attica by one thousand slaves; and likewise at Delos, and many other places. But the magistrates of the various communities, to prevent the mischief from going further, made a quick response, and promptly fell upon the slaves, and put them all to death. So those that remained and were ready to break out into rebellion, were reduced to more sound and sober thoughts.

    20 But in Sicily the disorders increased more and more; for cities were taken, and their inhabitants made slaves, and many armies were routed by the rebels, until such time as Rupilius the Roman general recovered Tauromenium."

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