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Thread: The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2,000-year archeogenomic time transe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yupi View Post
    For Rome I am sure most of the shift is a cause of direct transplanted MENA population not a Southern Italian inspired shift. Even if Greeks of Italy turn out to be Cretan-like by the time of Hellenistic era it still does not prove the Imperial Rome hypothesis.
    A direct transplanted MENA population that just so happens to cluster exactly the way Hellenistic Southern Italians, Greeks, and Western Anatolians are going to cluster. What an interesting coincidence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    What do you mean Venetia Giulia ?

    The region is called Friuli-Venezia-Giulia............it comprises of 3 areas
    Friuli who speak Furlan and major city is Udine
    Venezia who speak Venetian and major city is Pordenone
    Giulia which means the Julian alps ............the main city is now Trieste , it was Gorizia..........but Trieste in History was never under Venice even though they spoke Venetian ..........it came under Italy after WW2

    The Austrian rule in North-East Italy 1820-1870 ( after the Congress of Vienna ) is when Pordenone was moved from being under Veneto region to Friuli region as the Austrian saw Veneto region far to huge , stretching as far west as Verona.

    The Slovenian elements is mostly under the Giulian part ( the alpine area )................but as I know my ancestors where involved in their laboratories ( factories of under 20 people ) that young 16yo slovenian girls where prized away by the austrians from their families and given to these laboratories to work and when coming of age between 17-18 where encouraged to find local men to marry ( system called El Fio ) ...................I guess the story of Austrians sending slovenian men to Galicia poland or slovak to defend the empire might be true ......Austrians had some issues with the Slovenians
    It would comprise of 2 areas, no? It used to be "Friuli-Venezia Giulia", rather than "Friuli-Venezia-Giulia", but it's also used "Friuli Venezia Giulia" now (without any hyphen).
    As for what I've meant by Venezia Giulia, here it is: https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezia_Giulia

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahuwarhd View Post
    I'd forgotten about the 72% villabruna-like model. That's something I should look at again.

    In regards to the Friulani (or Forojuliani as their ancient name was) I think it's not a good method of modelling both EHG and Yamnaya as potential source populations. It's similar to modelling anatolian neolithic with Neolithic-moroccan as potential sources - you're modelling effectively two populations with large amounts of the same ancestral genome which will always cause bad guesses for population histories in the calculator. The reality of the fact is that bronze age italians exhibited really pretty widely varying amounts of EHG ancestry and assuming that 100% of the indo europeans that ultimately impacted italy by the bronze age held EHG portions in the exact same proportions as samara yamnaya while drawing the conclusion that an extra 2.5% EHG is something that came later doesn't make much sense to me.

    I very strongly agree with most of what you've written outside of this however so I think we're on pretty good terms as far as population models and ideas go.
    I understand what you're saying.
    I'd say a model may be just a model. As I suggested in one of my posts, the tool is far from perfection (like any other akin). As such, it should not be taken literally. The main goal was getting clues, as the one involving the AHG.
    Yamnaya already have EHG, indeed, as it has CHG, some Barcin and WHG. The goal of the EHG + Yamnaya_Samara was capturing an excess of the former in relation to the latter. Not big deal. Similarly, the goal of the CHG in the model would be getting an excess of this component in relation to Yamnaya (its main source in Europe in most of cases). Perhaps if I add some modern Caucasian pop as target, this extra-CHG could show up. Would have to check. Levant Neo also has lots of Anatolian Neo, by the way (I know this situation is a bit different though). Here, the "extra-Natufian" in relation to the ANF would control the amount of the Levant Neo (part of the ANF may end up as Levant Neo).
    I'm aware that different "Steppe" groups could have different EHG-CHG ratios, yet, in some cases we simply cannot assign all the EHG(-like) as Steppe (Finnish pop could be an example demanding the component). My point was related to the interpretation of the extra-EHG in that specific "model", and in specific groups, The "pattern" that called my attention "in that model" is the one in which the EHG is fully accommodated in Yamnaya when it comes to Western pops such Irish, Dutch, Belgian etc., but not in more Eastern pops, at the same time it showed up in Italian context precisely in the area that borders with Slovenia and that has an appreciable amount of R1a (which doesn't necessarily imply a perfect correlation between the amount of R1a and the extra discussed).
    In short, considering what these Westerners and Easterners are getting, I thought the "extra-EHG" could be a "Slavic sign" in certain cases (it should not work in all; an example, again, are the Finnish; there would be others), and used the term "perhaps". It's certainly an open question. If you think the extra-EHG per se is explained by the fact that the source of the EHG component was some "Steppe pop" with different EHG-CHG ratio than Yamnaya_Samara, no problem, but I don't see conflict.
    Last edited by Euganeo; 10-18-2021 at 02:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    A direct transplanted MENA population that just so happens to cluster exactly the way Hellenistic Southern Italians, Greeks, and Western Anatolians are going to cluster. What an interesting coincidence.
    Try modeling Imperial Romans with Levantines, MLBA Syrians, Classical Greeks and West Med Italic people and see what happens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yupi View Post
    Try modeling Imperial Romans with Levantines, MLBA Syrians, Classical Greeks and West Med Italic people and see what happens.
    Wait until Hellenistic Pompeiians, Greeks, and Western Anatolians are released and you can try the same thing. The East Med profile in Southern Italy will predate the Roman Empire. I'm telling you guys you need to prepare for this inevitability because it's coming at you like a bullet train.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euganeo View Post
    It would comprise of 2 areas, no? It used to be "Friuli-Venezia Giulia", rather than "Friuli-Venezia-Giulia", but it's also used "Friuli Venezia Giulia" now (without any hyphen).
    As for what I've meant by Venezia Giulia, here it is: https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezia_Giulia
    It depends on what you want to indicated ...........your venetia-giulia looks like part of a linguistic map as per the map below

    if you say the 3 Venice's ...then this is a linguistic map ( although not showing how some areas had more then one language, but venetian was spoke there or was the ruling language)

    https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tre_Ve...:Triveneto.svg

    orange name...unsure

    yellow after the original indigenous people the Euganei

    Green , the julian alps who spoke venetian language , istria more pure than the northern green part ........most likely because Istria is the first place the venetian conquered out of their lagoon. before any mainland areas.

    Furlan was not that wide spread about 1m people.....venetian at that time about 4-5M people ...............which is why when italy with their 22m people in 1861 "inherited" 5-6M venetian and friuli from austria in 1870 ........panicked and shipped over 1m out a few years later to Brazil and Argentina


    .............................

    BTW....I do not believe linguistic maps past or present are of any value
    Last edited by vettor; 10-18-2021 at 05:23 AM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Wait until Hellenistic Pompeiians, Greeks, and Western Anatolians are released and you can try the same thing. The East Med profile in Southern Italy will predate the Roman Empire. I'm telling you guys you need to prepare for this inevitability because it's coming at you like a bullet train.
    Western Anatolians might turn out to be to be Cypriot/Aegean islander-like.

    There will be a constant gene flow from different parts of Anatolia in European Greeks during the Classical, Hellenistic, Roman and Byzantine period. Whenever the bulk of it came during the Hellenistic era I don't know. I don't think we can investigate that in mainland Greece nor in small islands because they could've been abandoned during the history and repopulated again. It would very interesting to see when the shift takes place in Crete.

    But with a great quantity of samples like in Etruscan study.

    Pompeii did NOT exist in the Hellenistic period.

    And if the shift becomes visible in Southern Italy during the very late Hellenistic period, Greeks had 700 years in that land I am not sure if I can attribute it to Magna Greacia, at least outside of Greek colonies. Southern Italy was fully under Roman control.

    Rome had 300,000 people by 100BC, mostly West Med. Try modelling Imperial Roman with Dodecanese Greeks and Italics you will be left with 5% Italic.
    Last edited by Yupi; 10-18-2021 at 09:27 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Euganeo View Post
    Slightly changing the timeframe,...
    (using - without outliers - same WHGs and EHGs, TUR_Barcin_N..., TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N..., Yamnaya_RUS_Samara, GEO_CHG:KK1, IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N..., Levant_PPNB..., MAR_EN..., CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP..., KEN_Pastoral_N...)
    Target GEO_CHG IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N KEN_Pastoral_N Levant_PPNB MAR_EN TUR_Barcin_N TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N WHG Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    ITA_Etruscan:RMPR473 0 0 0 0 0 64 0 9.7 26.3
    ITA_Etruscan:RMPR474b 0 0 0 0 0 58.1 0 7.8 34.1
    ITA_Etruscan_o1:RMPR475b 0 0 2.3 0 11.3 64.1 0 5.9 16.4
    ITA_Etruria_Imperial:ETR001 1.1 2.6 0 7.3 0.8 32.4 24.7 2.1 29
    Italian_Tuscany 0 2.7 0 0 0.1 48.7 12 3.2 33.3
    According to the qpAdm run from the paper, modern Tuscans have way more Iranian Neolithic and WHG but less Yamnaya_Russia ancestry compared to what the g25 model gives them:



    This looks like ~23% Iran_N, ~10% WHG and ~22% Yamnaya for modern Tuscans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    According to the qpAdm run from the paper, modern Tuscans have way more Iranian Neolithic and WHG but less Yamnaya_Russia ancestry compared to what the g25 model gives them:



    This looks like ~23% Iran_N, ~10% WHG and ~22% Yamnaya for modern Tuscans.
    Iran_N in their model is inflated because they did not include CHG and a Middle Eastern component. This is what I get instead with Global25:

    Italian_Tuscany
    Distance: 3.8652%
    56.4 EEF
    15.8 CHG
    12.0 ANE
    7.6 WHG
    5.2 MIDDLE_EAST
    3.0 IRAN_N
    [1] "distance%=3.2865"

    Ajeje Brazorf

    EEF,54.6
    CHG,14.2
    MIDDLE_EAST,10.2
    IRAN_N,8.8
    ANE,6.4
    WHG,4.2
    TAFORALT,1.6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    Iran_N in their model is inflated because they did not include CHG and a Middle Eastern component. This is what I get instead with Global25:

    Italian_Tuscany
    Distance: 3.8652%
    56.4 EEF
    15.8 CHG
    12.0 ANE
    7.6 WHG
    5.2 MIDDLE_EAST
    3.0 IRAN_N
    What do you use for Middle East? Levant_PPNB? They should've included a Levantine reference, I agree.

    Anyway, that's still very different from the paper's model. All the 16% CHG in your model is eaten up by Yamnaya_Samara: 16% CHG + 12% ANE + 4% WHG = 32% Yamnaya which is what g25 gives for modern Tuscans. Whereas in qpAdm the Iran_N is in excess of the Yamnaya ancestry. Also WHG proportion is very different (3.5% vs 10%). So there's definitely some discrepancy there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    Iran_N in their model is inflated because they did not include CHG and a Middle Eastern component. This is what I get instead with Global25:

    Italian_Tuscany
    Distance: 3.8652%
    56.4 EEF
    15.8 CHG
    12.0 ANE
    7.6 WHG
    5.2 MIDDLE_EAST
    3.0 IRAN_N
    With ANE, do you mean Ancient North Eurasian? If so, do you mind telling which pop you used for that? Also, wouldn't CHG itself also have ANE by itself?

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