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Thread: The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2,000-year archeogenomic time transe

  1. #301
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    Here is a list of 2500 samples that Kolgeh had posted back in 2020.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....ncient-samples

    England: predominately I2a and then transitions over to P312 in the Bronze Age.
    France: predominately I2a followed by G2a, some H2 then transitions over to P312 in the Bronze Age.
    Germany: predominately G2a, followed by H2, some I2a then transitions over to L151/P312 in the Bronze Age.
    Hungary: predominately G2a and I2a then transitions over to L151/P312 in the Bronze Age.
    Iberia: predominately I2a and some G2a then transitions over to P312 in the Bronze Age. Some J and E beginning in the Hellenistic.
    Italy: predominately I2a and G2a then transitions over L151/P312 in the Bronze Age. A lot of J in the Imperial period. A rebound of G2a in the Imperial Period. By the Medieval Early period a good mix of J, G2a, I2a, and L151/P312.

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  3. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    Here is a list of 2500 samples that Kolgeh had posted back in 2020.

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....ncient-samples

    England: predominately I2a and then transitions over to P312 in the Bronze Age.
    France: predominately I2a followed by G2a, some H2 then transitions over to P312 in the Bronze Age.
    Germany: predominately G2a, followed by H2, some I2a then transitions over to L151/P312 in the Bronze Age.
    Hungary: predominately G2a and I2a then transitions over to L151/P312 in the Bronze Age.
    Iberia: predominately I2a and some G2a then transitions over to P312 in the Bronze Age. Some J and E beginning in the Hellenistic.
    Italy: predominately I2a and G2a then transitions over L151/P312 in the Bronze Age. A lot of J in the Imperial period. A rebound of G2a in the Imperial Period. By the Medieval Early period a good mix of J, G2a, I2a, and L151/P312.
    This is from Laura Cassidy's Final Thesis, which I downloaded before it was embargoed:

    "Uniparental analysis: Divergent patterns in male and female lineage history

    Y chromosome haplogroup assignment was possible for all 53 male samples sequenced. Mesolithic and Neolithic individuals were found to place overwhelmingly within haplogroup I2a (Electronic Data Table S5-7), one of the dominant lineages of the European Mesolithic and commonly observed in other western Neolithic populations (Haak et al. 2015; Mathieson et al. 2015; Olalde et al. 2017). As expected, Mesolithic samples show more basal lineages with respect to the Neolithic cohort, a significant number of whom placed within the subclade I2a2a1-M284, found almost exclusively in Britain today (International Society of Genetic Genealogy 2017; FamilyTreeDNA 2017). A near complete turnover is then witnessed in the Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age, with virtually all samples from this time onwards belonging to the R1b-L151 haplogroup, associated with the Atlantic Modal Haplotype. This lineage forms a downstream branch of R1b-M269, the most prevalent haplogroup in western Europe today (Myres et al. 2011). It was possible to place a further majority of samples (81.8%) into the subclade R1b-L21, a haplogroup whose distribution shows a steep and somewhat restricted peak in modern Ireland, where it accounts for almost half of male lineages (Myres et al. 2011). Only one Y chromosome examined fell outside R1b-M269 after the Neolithic period, belonging to an Early Bronze Age individual from the southwest, Killuragh1, who placed within I2a2a1-M284."

    It is interesting that prior to the Bronze Age, very western Europe was almost absent to very low numbers of G2a, but G2a gradually increases the closer you move back to Central/Eastern Europe.

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  5. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Neolithic Anatolian genes reached as far north as Scandinavia and Britain. They mixed with hunter-gatherers and during the Late Neolithic there was an increase in WHG, but it never again reached anything close to the pre-Neolithic levels.

    One can easily classify some haplogroups in Europe (hunter-gatherers, farmers, pastoralists) based on when they got there and spread. This last one is always overlooked. For example, I have seen debates about the origin of E-V13 where most will claim it has been in Europe since the Neolithic based on a single 10 year old sample from Spain that used a small number of STRs. Even if we take that sample as valid (call me skeptical), all haplogroups in Iberia were replaced by R-P312 during the Bell Beaker period and that E-V13 may have been a dead-end. So, what gets classified as a European "Neolithic" marker likely expanded in Iberia with Romans. We even have haplogroup J showing up in steppe hunter-gatherers, but again, it is meaningless if it died out there and was replaced by R-L23 and R1a. Truth of the matter is that most Western Europeans owe their "farmer" Y-haplogroups to Romans and maybe even to the strong continued cultural dependency on the Catholic church for 1000 years after Roman Empire's collapse.
    Interesting and I do not disagree as this being a main pattern for many area. Some late Neolithic European (West, South, Balkans) clans seem to have survived and later spread noticably in certain restricted areas, the "dilution" to the rest of Europe more likely happened From Iron Age on (mainly Roman time, migration period and Middle Age settlement activity enforced by Nobility/Church. I do not know how many more ancient Y-samples we need to rebuild the situation from Neolithic to modern times for all European regions in a major agreement. Has anyone seen or done an estimate how many percent of found human remains have not yet been analyzed for the DNA? So to have a feeling of the potential for new findings. For a lot of samples we would also wish for better resolution, especially on the Y.

    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    If the pre-Roman studies in places like Iberia, France and Britain show only R1b, and then these farmer haplogroups show up during the Roman period, isn't that evidence enough? And yes, some R-U152 subclades (not all) will have expanded with Romans, but obviously R-L21 was already in Britain, R-DF27 was Iberia, R-U152 was already in Switzerland etc. before the Romans.
    In this regard I'm interested to learn and understand more about the likely connection of migration paths of Hallstatt/Celtic/Gaulish U152 and Italics/Latins/etc. U152: what I have no good clue yet is if there was an early U152 split maybe Northeast of the Alps and while most moved a little to the West to Hallstatt another branch went to the Italian peninsula either by passing east and south of the Alps or trough the Alps. Was this discussed or maybe published?

    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    We already have post-Bell Beaker samples and we know the Y-haplogroups didn't change. Automsomal DNA may have become more EEF shifted because the continental Bell Beakers had more of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    We never have enough, but outside of Italy, sans an I1 Iron Age sample from France and an I2 from an Iron Age sample from Spain, they all remain R1b. R1b in Britain remained, but I would not be surprised if some I2 survived. Typical EEF lineages look like they were 100% replaced in places outside of Italy, Sardinia and the Balkans.
    The question where I1 was before his expansion and where the major I2 lineages mainly spread from Post-Neolithic remains interesting or is there good ancient DNA evidence I missed? So Richard for G you also think it did not survive pre-Iron-Age outside of Italy/Alps, Sardinia and the Balkans?
    Obviously the TMRCA from modern Y are estimates but I have some intriguing cases of likely pre-Roman non I/R haplogroups North of the Alps or in Iberia/England (I mainly study J2a branches) where it is difficult to connect them to known movements/cultures. Could the Late Bronze Age collapse play a role so that "specialists" from outside of Atlantic/Continental Europe were allowed to settle and contribute to Iron Age main populations like the mentioned L21 Brits, DF27 Iberians, U152 Celtic/Gaulish? Especially on the Upper Rhine I suspect such "technology injections" by foreign incomers and to at least come back a little to the topic one hypothesis could be the "friendly exchange" of Etruscans/Raetians with the Celtic/Gaulish world. Since I'm interested in European wine history I have some hints from that field. I also need to restudy some interesting J2a subclades which may have entered Europe pre-Iron-Age from the Steppe and the J2b-L283 history in South(East) Europe with expansion to the North also is an interesting mosaic piece. I do not know if @Trojet is active here and may comment on pre-IronAge expansion to the North of L283. I have not heard him about the Etruscan Sample R474 being J2b-L283>CTS6190>CTS473>Y45181. CTS473 looks very "Villanovan".
    Particularly interested in: DNA/Admixture from Historical Tyrol, Central Alps and related/connected populations; Y-DNA J2a-M67-L210, J2a-PF5197-PF5169, R1a-M17, R1b-U106-Z372; mtDNA J1b1b, J1c1d2-A11884G, U5a2b2-G10685A, U5b1b1-b-T16192C! Projects: Hidden Content , Hidden Content , J2a-PF5197, ISOGG Wiki, GenWiki (german)

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  7. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    Interesting and I do not disagree as this being a main pattern for many area. Some late Neolithic European (West, South, Balkans) clans seem to have survived and later spread noticably in certain restricted areas, the "dilution" to the rest of Europe more likely happened From Iron Age on (mainly Roman time, migration period and Middle Age settlement activity enforced by Nobility/Church. I do not know how many more ancient Y-samples we need to rebuild the situation from Neolithic to modern times for all European regions in a major agreement. Has anyone seen or done an estimate how many percent of found human remains have not yet been analyzed for the DNA? So to have a feeling of the potential for new findings. For a lot of samples we would also wish for better resolution, especially on the Y.


    In this regard I'm interested to learn and understand more about the likely connection of migration paths of Hallstatt/Celtic/Gaulish U152 and Italics/Latins/etc. U152: what I have no good clue yet is if there was an early U152 split maybe Northeast of the Alps and while most moved a little to the West to Hallstatt another branch went to the Italian peninsula either by passing east and south of the Alps or trough the Alps. Was this discussed or maybe published?




    The question where I1 was before his expansion and where the major I2 lineages mainly spread from Post-Neolithic remains interesting or is there good ancient DNA evidence I missed? So Richard for G you also think it did not survive pre-Iron-Age outside of Italy/Alps, Sardinia and the Balkans?
    Obviously the TMRCA from modern Y are estimates but I have some intriguing cases of likely pre-Roman non I/R haplogroups North of the Alps or in Iberia/England (I mainly study J2a branches) where it is difficult to connect them to known movements/cultures. Could the Late Bronze Age collapse play a role so that "specialists" from outside of Atlantic/Continental Europe were allowed to settle and contribute to Iron Age main populations like the mentioned L21 Brits, DF27 Iberians, U152 Celtic/Gaulish? Especially on the Upper Rhine I suspect such "technology injections" by foreign incomers and to at least come back a little to the topic one hypothesis could be the "friendly exchange" of Etruscans/Raetians with the Celtic/Gaulish world. Since I'm interested in European wine history I have some hints from that field. I also need to restudy some interesting J2a subclades which may have entered Europe pre-Iron-Age from the Steppe and the J2b-L283 history in South(East) Europe with expansion to the North also is an interesting mosaic piece. I do not know if @Trojet is active here and may comment on pre-IronAge expansion to the North of L283. I have not heard him about the Etruscan Sample R474 being J2b-L283>CTS6190>CTS473>Y45181. CTS473 looks very "Villanovan".
    Indeed I could be wrong but I don't think any J2a clades spread into Europe from the Steppe pre-Iron Age.

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  9. #305
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    Y-DNA (P)
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    mtDNA (M)
    H1a1

    Sweden Italy Italy 1861-1946 Sami Vatican Italy Tuscany
    Code:
    Italic,0.127608556,0.150298556,0.035658889,-0.012776444,0.043119111,-0.006383444,0.001357778,0.000769222,0.020793333,0. 038006222,0.00083,0.012622111,-0.019375556,-0.007401111,-0.001085667,-0.001193222,0.003071222,0.003209444,0.007542,-0.003432222,-0.000138667,0.005028444,-0.002903222,-0.002155556,-0.000146444
    
    Greek:GRC_Mycenaean,0.107847,0.1563915,-0.008108,-0.0646808,0.0216962,-0.0271222,-0.0005288,-0.0021345,0.00542,0.047336,0.005521,0.0169352,-0.012785,-0.0006195,-0.0163882,-0.0098118,0.0210245,0.0036108,0.0123188,-0.0039705,-0.0058648,0.0001858,-0.0065935,0.0011448,-0.0007185
    Greek:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,0.118376,0.158423,-0.009051,-0.0670225,0.0252355,-0.027889,0.001645,-0.005077,0.0049085,0.042552,0.002842,0.01124,-0.016873,0.003578,-0.018526,-0.0157785,0.0035855,0.0003805,0.004588,-0.0126935,-0.008298,0.001546,0.001664,0.0071095,-0.008502
    
    Levant:Levant_Megiddo_IA,0.084229,0.150298,-0.060716,-0.091409,-0.014464,-0.044623,-0.00517,-0.005077,0.011658,0.006014,0.012179,-0.007343,0.019177,0.006193,-0.002307,0.002254,-0.026207,0.005828,0.00729,-0.005753,0.001622,-0.002226,-0.006162,-0.000843,-0.005987
    Levant:Levant_LBN_Roman,0.0887823,0.1447132,-0.0554368,-0.085595,-0.0116175,-0.0282378,-0.0074612,-0.0076152,0.0076698,0.0121642,0.0031262,-0.01139,0.0130822,-0.0017893,-0.0105862,0.0093475,0.002673,-0.0006652,0.0025138,0.0022512,0.000655,0.0059042,-0.0035742,0.0001205,-0.005299
    Persian:IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA,0.095611,0.111708,-0.069767,-0.036176,-0.047393,0.003626,-0.00235,-0.001846,-0.043155,-0.019499,0.003897,-0.002997,0.008771,0.002615,0.00095,0.009679,-0.010561,0.012922,0.006788,-0.003627,-0.003868,-0.013107,-0.004067,-0.004699,0.007664
    Persian:IRN_Hasanlu_IA,0.09675,0.121864,-0.06939,-0.04199,-0.0437,-0.003904,0.002115,-0.004615,-0.033746,-0.014761,0.005684,0.001049,0.004757,-0.007707,0.003664,0.026916,0.009518,0.002534,0.006034,-0.001376,-0.000873,-0.000618,0.000493,-0.003133,-0.001557
    
    Germanic:DEU_MA,0.1223596,0.1303939,0.061169,0.048773,0.039792,0.0199408,0.010975,0.0052151,0.0013295,-0.0024966,-0.003735,0.001109,-0.0091576,-0.0038398,0.0161643,-0.0008352,-0.0133511,0.0032684,0.0041354,0.0040271,0.0060019,0.0037342,-0.0007273,0.011146,-0.0004429

    Target: Italian_Tuscany
    Distance: 0.7253% / 0.00725295 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    43.8 Italic
    19.6 Greek
    18.2 Germanic
    10.4 Levant
    8.0 Persian
    Target: Italian_Lombardy
    Distance: 1.0890% / 0.01089014 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    43.8 Italic
    26.8 Greek
    25.8 Germanic
    3.4 Levant
    0.2 Persian
    Target: Italian_Bergamo
    Distance: 1.0021% / 0.01002149 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    50.6 Italic
    24.8 Germanic
    21.6 Greek
    3.0 Levant
    I still think that the high Germanic is due to calculator effect. But anyways the Levant and Iranian are very low as expected.
    Hidden Content


    Target: Nino_scaled
    Distance: 2.3124% / 0.02312401 | R3P
    61.4 Swedish
    35.8 Spanish_Soria
    2.8 Nganassan

  10. #306
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    @Nino90

    Which samples did you used for "Italic" coordinates?
    Target: Andre_scaled
    Distance: 4.7247% / 0.04724728
    50.8 Early_Anatolian_Farmer
    41.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
    5.4 Western_HG
    2.2 North/East_Asia

  11. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andre View Post
    @Nino90

    Which samples did you used for "Italic" coordinates?

    I borrowed it from this thread:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....d-Western-Jews

    I think it is all Italic samples without outlines. A very clean 3 way West Med like :

    Target: Italic
    Distance: 2.6441% / 0.02644054
    62.6 TUR_Barcin_N
    27.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    10.0 WHG
    Distance to: Italic
     
    0.02021806 French_Corsica:CorsicaS00708
    0.02214032 French_Corsica:Corsica14708
    0.02214645 French_Provence:S_32_R
    0.02281598 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP259
    0.02456334 Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01153
    0.02492223 Italian_Lombardy:BGD28
    0.02696478 Spanish_Baleares:HG01615
    0.02702751 French_Provence:S_20
    0.02707245 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP395
    0.02708144 Italian_Veneto:KF1803109
    0.02721806 Italian_Veneto:ALP040
    0.02740011 Spanish_Pirineu:GRA029
    0.02776013 Italian_Veneto:KF1800751
    0.02785173 French_Corsica:CorsicaS04208
    0.02796351 Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01155
    0.02814534 Spanish_Girona:REI087
    0.02823305 Italian_Veneto:Alp401
    0.02839131 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona:FER039
    0.02884317 Spanish_Lleida:FER015
    0.02884365 Spanish_Valencia:EST038
    0.02902995 Spanish_Aragon:HG01676
    0.02918297 Spanish_Eivissa:EIV012_2
    0.02921554 Spanish_Menorca:GUS007
    0.02926256 Spanish_MenorcaON058
    0.02958067 Spanish_Girona:ROB116
    Last edited by Nino90; 06-22-2021 at 06:07 PM.
    Hidden Content


    Target: Nino_scaled
    Distance: 2.3124% / 0.02312401 | R3P
    61.4 Swedish
    35.8 Spanish_Soria
    2.8 Nganassan

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  13. #308
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    T1a1

    Republic of Venice Italy Veneto Italy Tuscany Italy 1861-1946 European Union Israel
    Quote Originally Posted by Nino90 View Post
    Code:
    Italic,0.127608556,0.150298556,0.035658889,-0.012776444,0.043119111,-0.006383444,0.001357778,0.000769222,0.020793333,0. 038006222,0.00083,0.012622111,-0.019375556,-0.007401111,-0.001085667,-0.001193222,0.003071222,0.003209444,0.007542,-0.003432222,-0.000138667,0.005028444,-0.002903222,-0.002155556,-0.000146444
    
    Greek:GRC_Mycenaean,0.107847,0.1563915,-0.008108,-0.0646808,0.0216962,-0.0271222,-0.0005288,-0.0021345,0.00542,0.047336,0.005521,0.0169352,-0.012785,-0.0006195,-0.0163882,-0.0098118,0.0210245,0.0036108,0.0123188,-0.0039705,-0.0058648,0.0001858,-0.0065935,0.0011448,-0.0007185
    Greek:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2,0.118376,0.158423,-0.009051,-0.0670225,0.0252355,-0.027889,0.001645,-0.005077,0.0049085,0.042552,0.002842,0.01124,-0.016873,0.003578,-0.018526,-0.0157785,0.0035855,0.0003805,0.004588,-0.0126935,-0.008298,0.001546,0.001664,0.0071095,-0.008502
    
    Levant:Levant_Megiddo_IA,0.084229,0.150298,-0.060716,-0.091409,-0.014464,-0.044623,-0.00517,-0.005077,0.011658,0.006014,0.012179,-0.007343,0.019177,0.006193,-0.002307,0.002254,-0.026207,0.005828,0.00729,-0.005753,0.001622,-0.002226,-0.006162,-0.000843,-0.005987
    Levant:Levant_LBN_Roman,0.0887823,0.1447132,-0.0554368,-0.085595,-0.0116175,-0.0282378,-0.0074612,-0.0076152,0.0076698,0.0121642,0.0031262,-0.01139,0.0130822,-0.0017893,-0.0105862,0.0093475,0.002673,-0.0006652,0.0025138,0.0022512,0.000655,0.0059042,-0.0035742,0.0001205,-0.005299
    Persian:IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA,0.095611,0.111708,-0.069767,-0.036176,-0.047393,0.003626,-0.00235,-0.001846,-0.043155,-0.019499,0.003897,-0.002997,0.008771,0.002615,0.00095,0.009679,-0.010561,0.012922,0.006788,-0.003627,-0.003868,-0.013107,-0.004067,-0.004699,0.007664
    Persian:IRN_Hasanlu_IA,0.09675,0.121864,-0.06939,-0.04199,-0.0437,-0.003904,0.002115,-0.004615,-0.033746,-0.014761,0.005684,0.001049,0.004757,-0.007707,0.003664,0.026916,0.009518,0.002534,0.006034,-0.001376,-0.000873,-0.000618,0.000493,-0.003133,-0.001557
    
    Germanic:DEU_MA,0.1223596,0.1303939,0.061169,0.048773,0.039792,0.0199408,0.010975,0.0052151,0.0013295,-0.0024966,-0.003735,0.001109,-0.0091576,-0.0038398,0.0161643,-0.0008352,-0.0133511,0.0032684,0.0041354,0.0040271,0.0060019,0.0037342,-0.0007273,0.011146,-0.0004429







    I still think that the high Germanic is due to calculator effect. But anyways the Levant and Iranian are very low as expected.
    I just removed Levant:Levant_LBN_Roman and put it in the Target column and then I removed Greek also

    Target: Levant:Levant_LBN_Roman
    Distance: 2.7719% / 0.02771938
    61.0 Levant
    20.0 Greek
    19.0 Persian


    Target: Levant:Levant_LBN_Roman
    Distance: 3.5172% / 0.03517234
    77.8 Levant
    11.2 Italic
    11.0 Persian

    Was there are shift in Hellenistic-Roman Lebanon? Also we have those Ashkelon outliers from further south...

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  15. #309
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    German

    Quote Originally Posted by Nino90 View Post
    I still think that the high Germanic is due to calculator effect. But anyways the Levant and Iranian are very low as expected.
    I am not sure if the “calculator effect” has something to do with that (it has been ages since I have heard that term anyway).

    One possibility for inflated Germanic ancestry in models involving northern Italians could be, that both the Italic and Greek samples are too old to be directly relevant here. Much could have changed till northern Italians formed.
    We also entirely lack (cisalpine) Celtic samples, an ancestry component that should not be underestimated.

    What happens if you include the Czech Hallstatt sample DA111, Swiss IA sample SX18, DEU_Roman_FN2 or French IA samples?

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     Nino90 (06-22-2021)

  17. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chnodomar View Post
    I am not sure if the “calculator effect” has something to do with that (it has been ages since I have heard that term anyway).

    One possibility for inflated Germanic ancestry in models involving northern Italians could be, that both the Italic and Greek samples are too old to be directly relevant here. Much could have changed till northern Italians formed.
    We also entirely lack (cisalpine) Celtic samples, an ancestry component that should not be underestimated.

    What happens if you include the Czech Hallstatt sample DA111, Swiss IA sample SX18, DEU_Roman_FN2 or French IA samples?
    Calculator effect happens all the time in G25. Even more in Gedmatch and Admixture Studio.

    I do however agree that we lack Cisapline "celtic" samples who would be something in between Germanic and Italic is my best guess.

    I can try that later. I think I tried the French_IA samples before but it did not work out well.
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     Chnodomar (06-22-2021)

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