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Thread: The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2,000-year archeogenomic time transe

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    Swiss-Italians are merely people from Western Lombardy absorbed into the Swiss Confederation in the 16th century.
    could be a refugium (see:lavazza)
    maybe the'll also say smth. about U152

    not sure when they ult. joined the confederacion but i know for a fact that they 'returned' after arbedo 1422 (to the Duc. Mini)
    GENO2.0 51SEURO 19WCEURO 13SCANDINAVIA 5ASIAMINOR 4EEURO 4GB/IRELAND 3ARABIA myOrigins 26ITA.PENINSULA 13GREECE&BALKANS 12SARDINIA 18GREATBRITAIN 14IRELAND 10CEN.EUROPE 8SCANDINAVIA DNA.Land 49NWEURO 27SEURO 13MED.ISLANDER 11SARDINIAN myHeritage 51.8NWEURO 33.2ITALIAN 7.9GREEK/S.ITALY 7.1BALKAN gencove 29NITALY 19EMED 15NBRITISLES 12SWEURO 10NCEURO 9SCANDINAVIA 6NEEURO GenePlaza 54.4NWEURO 37.6GREEK/ALBANIAN 5.6WASIAN 2.4SWASIA LivingDNA 70.7SGERMANIC 16.3TUSCANY 9.2N.ITALY 3.8SARDINIA

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  3. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nino90 View Post
    Maybe the Elite were from somewhere else in the Mediterranean sea. They were however very few and did not impact the overall genetic admixture of Italians.
    Why would that possibility be?
    Last edited by Lupriac; 06-05-2021 at 02:29 PM.

  4. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    could be a refugium (see:lavazza)
    maybe the'll also say smth. about U152

    not sure when they ult. joined the confederacion but i know for a fact that they 'returned' after arbedo 1422 (to the Duc. Mini)
    Annexed by the Swiss between 1512 and 1515. Never part of Italy since those dates.

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  6. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lupriac View Post
    Why would that possibility be?
    For what it's worth, Fred C. Woudhuizen's study of Etruscan Onomastics finds 6 different ethnic identities in Etruscan texts from circa 700 BC/BCE onwards:

    1.LUWIAN
    2.EAST AEGEAN
    3.ITALIC
    4.GREEK
    5. PHOENICIAN
    6. CELTIC

    Categories 1,2 and 3 are by far the most important.

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  8. #105
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    What was the context regarding Luwian? As in description of Etruscan sub-groups or foreigners?

    Cause from the few genetic studies I have read, there is little indication/evidence on the Troyan myth being substantiated.
    The few rebuttals I can think of a) Luwians were not totally foreign autosomally, hence did not shift Etruscans to a great extent. b) If the Troyan myth has some truth, it must have been a small contingent of Luwians that did not shift Etruscans autosomaly in substantial amounts.

    Please let me know if I am making any mistakes with the above statements.

    Edit: As a final note, from the research I did some time ago Troyan/Luwian skeletons/ancient DNA is almost non existent in studies. Hopefully the upcoming Turkish study has some sample from the area/time period, then the discourse can be made with such a huge missing part of the puzzle.
    Last edited by Archetype0ne; 06-05-2021 at 04:26 PM.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    ― Franz Kafka

  9. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    What was the context regarding Luwian? As in description of Etruscan sub-groups or foreigners?

    Cause from the few genetic studies I have read, there is little indication/evidence on the Troyan myth being substantiated.
    The few rebuttals I can think of a) Luwians were not totally foreign autosomally, hence did not shift Etruscans to a great extent. b) If the Troyan myth has some truth, it must have been a small contingent of Luwians that did not shift Etruscans autosomaly in substantial amounts.

    Please let me know if I am making any mistakes with the above statements.
    Here is the source:

    academia.edu/7192544/Traces_of_Ethnic_Identities_in_Etruscan_Onomastics

    The author sticks mostly to linguistic factors concerning names and ethnonyms.
    Last edited by Cascio; 06-05-2021 at 04:16 PM.

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  11. #107
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    Regarding the Etruscans, probably all theories shares part of the truth. They were, like all ancient mediterranean people, a mix of cultures and races, and of course, they developed their unique culture, using their diverse heritage (Bell Beakers, Italics, Eastern Mediterraneans, mainly Anatolians and Aegeans etc.). If we look to Etruscan tomb frescoes, for example, we can see clearly different phenotypes, the Francois Tomb is a good example of it. Probably Villanovians descendants were the largest part of the population, but people with other origins were also part of the Etruscans people. Cicero, on De Repubblica, II, 19., told us the importance of Greeks from Corinth on Etruscans of the VIIth century BCE, Demaratus of Corinth was Taquinio Priscus father (The fifth king of Rome), and as explained also by other authors such as Plinius, Cornelio Nepote, and the emperor Claudius, known as one of the most relevant Etruscologist, Greeks from Corinth were an important part of the Etruscan culture, for example Plinius states that the famous painter ''Ekphantos'' came to Etruria with the Corinth Greeks. Herodotus said that writing came to Etruscans through Corinthians.
    It is indeed quite interesting this discussion, and please take in consideration that important authors from the past, such as Cicero, also were involved on this matter 2.000 years ago, for further details regarding the Corinthians influence on Etruscans, please check authors such as: Titus Livius, Dyonisus of Halicanassus, Strabo, Virgil, among many others.
    Last edited by J.delajara; 06-05-2021 at 04:22 PM.

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  13. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granary View Post
    I'm not sure if I agree with the implications of an Etruscan elite ruling over an Italic population, especially because the Anatolian origin of such an elite are frankly on very shaky grounds given we have no evidence of Anatolian population speaking anything like Etruscan and Lemnos might very well be an actual Etruscan outpost instead of a relic from a past migration, if it's Etruscan to begin with(I don't think the evidence is as conclusive as people wish)

    What about toponyms? If Etruscan were only an elite the type of toponyms they should have left should be different.
    If the people that wrote the Lemnos tablets were Etruscan traders, they would be written in Etruscan. Instead, they are written in Lemnian, a language related to Etruscan, but not Etruscan itself. That seems to be the linguistic consensus anyway.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Last edited by Canadiens; 06-05-2021 at 05:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    I don't know that I've seen "many" on Anthrogenica. The problem is, what does one consider "Italic"? Certainly one can say U152, but obviously U152 survived north of the Alps and some if it may have come from the north during the Middle Ages. Remember, we have 3 R-L2s from a Lombard cemetery in Hungary. Heck, we've even seen haplogroups like E in a Lombard.
    I see it differently

    I see "italic" origins of mainly being of Umbri populace/ethnicity ( and their very many sub-tribes ) plus the etruscans as its origins

    I am unsure if Etruscans are a very old branch of Umbri that broke off in the late bronze age or not ...........but I classify them as "italic"

    Romans as very heavily influenced and mixed with the Etruscans

    ....................

    "italics" include republican Rome.


    Imperial Rome brought in africans, levantines, gauls , iberians etc into the empire.

    The germanics of Italy came via the Ostrogoths then the Lombards in majority ..............I see no control of Rome in its time of existence over any Germanic lands.


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    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-Y33791 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

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