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Thread: The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2,000-year archeogenomic time transe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Pretty sure I've posted this sort of quick and dirty run before, but why not again...

     


    Not meant to be comprehensive; just a sketch. I only used the Piedmontese that scored less than 35% Imperial Roman for their average, assuming that those with more are Southern-mixed outliers. I averaged the Italic IA and Etruscans together for the "native" Italian IA source. For the Imperial Romans, I used only the East Med types-- no north-of-Alps or Near Easterners (as an aside using the all-encompassing average doesn't actually move the needle much anyway). For Collegno Langobard average, only the northern European-like ones were used for that average. And Slavic is just me throwing something in to account for NE Italy and may not be the most optimal proxy. If Southern Italy received Byzantine Greek immigration post-Migration Era, some very dilute Slavic ancestry there makes sense, too.

    EDIT: Also, I made no attempt to account for possible Celtic elements in the north because I don't know where to even start for that. It also will be interesting to see if some of the "West Med" element is actually from "fleeing provincials" as Alexfritz has mentioned before.
    I think that the Via Paisiello early Imperial samples might be close to your Imperial average without outliers. Also they might be similar to provincial Romans.

    Btw, I grouped all the romans samples from Iron Age to Late Antiquity, if you want to do something with it, here is the list.

     

    Crypta_Balbi:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR104,0.121 791,0.159438,0.035826,-0.056525,0.073244,-0.022869,-0.00564,0.001154,0.047245,0.085469,-0.002598,0.014087,-0.02438,-0.01679,-0.015608,-0.002254,0.018515,-0.006081,0.004651,-0.011506,-0.004492,-0.011623,-0.013557,-0.023738,0.004071
    Celio:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR105,0.122929,0.1 46236,0.034695,-0.004522,0.040623,-0.00251,-0.00094,0.003231,0.01309,0.016766,0.00341,0.002698 ,-0.003865,-0.00055,0.003257,-0.004773,-0.012126,-0.006588,-0.000503,-0.001376,0.00025,0.001237,-0.003574,-0.006627,0.004191
    Crypta_Balbi:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR106,0.120 652,0.136081,0.042992,0.03876,0.038161,0.005299,-0.000235,0.003231,0.002454,0.008383,-0.000487,0.007493,-0.009812,-0.008945,0.010993,0.00358,-0.002477,0.003041,0.014581,-0.006628,0.01148,0.008161,0.001356,0.005543,-0.005389
    Crypta_Balbi:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR107,0.119 514,0.149283,-0.004525,-0.031654,0.022773,-0.02008,-0.00893,-0.004615,0.010226,0.021322,-0.000325,0.005545,-0.00223,0.00578,-0.007872,-0.007425,0.009127,-0.00038,-0.000251,0.007504,-0.003993,-0.001607,0.010106,0.00012,-0.00012
    Crypta_Balbi:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR108,0.128 62,0.140143,0.042615,0.006783,0.043085,0.00502,0.0 01175,-0.008769,0.003477,0.01385,0.000325,0.002398,-0.001189,-0.008533,0.00475,0.005171,-0.000391,0.000633,0.002765,0,0.001373,0.001237,-0.004437,0.002892,0.00012
    Crypta_Balbi:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR109,0.122 929,0.147252,0.039598,-0.011628,0.039392,-0.004741,0.000235,0.009692,0.018203,0.02041,-0.002436,0.012889,-0.015758,-0.014726,0.005565,0.000796,0.012126,0.002534,0.006 411,-0.004502,0.005615,0.007048,-0.003204,0.011206,-0.004431
    Crypta_Balbi:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR110,0.127 482,0.141159,0.033564,-0.005814,0.033545,-0.006693,-0.000705,0.001846,0.019225,0.034078,0.003735,0.008 842,-0.016799,-0.004954,0.00665,0.002254,0.009388,0.007475,0.0101 82,0.007629,-0.009733,0.004946,0.001232,-0.000964,0.003712
    San_Ercolano:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR117,0.104 717,0.150298,-0.014708,-0.039406,0.011694,-0.015897,-0.00329,-0.01223,0.003272,0.014032,-0.00341,0.010341,-0.013082,0.003853,-0.013843,0.003845,0.004303,0.006841,0.003897,-0.014757,-0.005116,-0.000495,-0.005669,0.005543,-0.00491
    San_Ercolano:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR118,0.108 132,0.145221,0.003771,-0.033915,0.020619,-0.022311,-0.002115,0.003461,0.001227,0.023144,-0.004872,-0.000899,-0.017096,-0.006055,0.000814,0.009016,0.020861,-0.00152,0.006788,0.006128,-0.003369,0.004451,0.001232,0.002771,0.001557
    San_Ercolano:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR120,0.108 132,0.153345,0.012068,-0.03876,0.016926,-0.011435,-0.0047,-0.010615,0.009613,0.023144,-0.000162,0.005845,-0.005054,0.000413,-0.009908,-0.004508,-0.011995,0.007095,0.001257,-0.000375,0.000374,0.010758,0.002095,-0.003976,0.003233
    San_Ercolano:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR121,0.112 685,0.151314,0.000754,-0.031331,0.020927,-0.007251,0.00235,-0.003692,0.005727,0.024602,-0.004872,0.01079,-0.009663,0.001239,-0.013029,-0.006232,-0.008996,0,0.007668,-0.009004,0.001622,0,0.006039,0.000482,-0.011735
    San_Ercolano:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR122,0.102 441,0.153345,0.000377,-0.044574,0.016003,-0.019801,-0.00235,0.000231,0.004909,0.031891,0.003085,0.0068 94,-0.013231,0.006331,-0.0095,-0.010077,-0.007432,-0.007601,0.003897,-0.005378,-0.001248,-0.005564,0.003574,0.005784,0.000239
    Marcellino_Pietro:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR130, 0.103579,0.150298,-0.037335,-0.063308,-0.001846,-0.021753,0.00047,-0.010846,0.003681,0.030069,0.008444,-0.001948,-0.003419,-0.002064,-0.00285,-0.009546,0.002868,0.002534,-0.000628,-0.000875,0.004118,0.001855,-0.013557,-0.001325,-0.00455
    Marcellino_Pietro:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR133, 0.108132,0.14319,-0.023381,-0.056202,0.006463,-0.020638,0.00658,0.000462,-0.005727,0.026971,0.007307,0.005245,-0.006244,-0.001651,-0.010993,0.01127,0.021122,-0.003547,0.003645,-0.005628,-0.006613,-0.003586,-0.003204,0.005422,0.005868
    Marcellino_Pietro:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR134, 0.097888,0.151314,-0.028284,-0.059432,0.008309,-0.020917,-0.0047,-0.006461,-0.004295,0.019681,0.000162,0.004196,0.00446,0.0038 53,-0.006107,-0.004641,0.000913,-0.002534,-0.005154,0.00025,-0.004243,0.004204,-0.002958,0.001325,-0.002994
    Marcellino_Pietro:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR136, 0.108132,0.149283,-0.013199,-0.040698,0.011079,-0.011435,-0.001645,-0.006,-0.000818,0.018224,0.00747,0.001199,-0.003568,0.004679,-0.008007,-0.001856,0.00339,0,0.005782,-0.005753,0.000125,0.006059,0,0.000964,0.003952
    Marcellino_Pietro:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR137, 0.110408,0.15436,-0.018856,-0.052003,0.010463,-0.008367,0.00047,-0.008538,-0.006954,0.028793,0.005846,0.005845,-0.012785,-0.007019,-0.017372,0.003845,0.007432,0.000887,-0.000126,-0.007629,-0.009483,0.000247,-0.000616,-0.002289,-0.003113
    Mausoleo_di_Augusto:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR30 ,0.101303,0.147252,-0.019987,-0.054264,0.013849,-0.024263,0.000235,-0.008077,0.0045,0.020228,0.000487,0.004196,-0.011447,-0.001514,-0.016558,-0.007027,0.00339,0.003041,0.005028,0.005628,0.0019 96,0.001237,0.003451,0.002289,-0.003233
    Mausoleo_di_Augusto:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR31 ,0.137726,0.142174,0.066373,0.047158,0.048317,0.00 8367,0.00423,0.009923,0.008795,0.004009,0.002273,0 .002098,-0.002973,-0.009221,0.016965,0.021612,0.008345,0.002787,0.007 793,0.013757,0.008735,0.00779,-0.003944,0.013737,-0.004071
    Mausoleo_di_Augusto:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR32 ,0.101303,0.155376,-0.007542,-0.044574,0.021542,-0.019243,-0.00376,-0.007154,0.002863,0.023326,-0.001137,0.003297,-0.008028,-0.006331,-0.002036,-0.004773,0.005867,-0.003294,-0.005782,0.003877,0.002121,-0.004081,0.003451,-0.011568,-0.000359
    Mausoleo_di_Augusto:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR33 ,0.124067,0.147252,0.024513,-0.012274,0.03416,-0.00251,0.00423,0.003,0.017589,0.026789,-0.003897,0,-0.012933,-0.003303,-0.005565,-0.005304,0.000652,0.00228,0.005656,-0.004252,-0.001872,0.002102,-0.005176,0.007591,-0.011855
    Mausoleo_di_Augusto:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR34 ,0.101303,0.152329,-0.023381,-0.059432,0.007386,-0.023985,0.001175,-0.000692,-0.003272,0.018406,0.002923,0.005095,-0.002973,0.00289,-0.007465,-0.005834,0.007041,0.004054,-0.002011,0.000125,-0.006364,0.004081,0.003944,-0.003012,-0.001557
    Celio:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR35,0.103579,0.15 0298,-0.011314,-0.046189,0.013541,-0.020638,0.00047,-0.008769,0.006954,0.021868,0.00341,0.002847,0.0001 49,-0.002064,-0.010179,-0.001724,0.008605,0.0019,0.000754,0.000125,-0.008235,-0.00136,0.002711,-0.010965,0.002395
    Celio:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR36,0.114961,0.15 436,0.003017,-0.022287,0.022773,-0.008925,0.00658,-0.003692,0.001023,0.018224,0.008931,0.001649,-0.008474,-0.009909,-0.001357,0.002784,0.002347,-0.000633,0.002263,-0.003126,0.003119,0.001484,-0.001356,0.005061,-0.000958
    Italic:Bell_Beaker_ITA:I1979,0.130897,0.157407,0.0 21496,-0.030685,0.044316,-0.020359,0.00423,-0.003,0.016771,0.044101,0.010718,0.01139,-0.024083,-0.006881,-0.007193,0.019756,0.022948,-0.001267,0.002011,-0.009505,-0.000499,0.008408,-0.0053,-0.008314,0.001317
    Italic:Bell_Beaker_ITA:I2478,0.126344,0.14319,0.04 4877,0.002584,0.045239,0.013108,0,0.000462,0.02249 8,0.036083,0.000325,0.013788,-0.017988,-0.007569,0.00475,-0.009016,-0.019949,0.012542,0.009553,-0.007754,0.006988,0.007543,-0.012202,-0.003374,0.005029
    Italic:ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA:RMPR851,0.133173,0.1563 92,0.0445,-0.00969,0.044008,-0.004462,0.00846,0.003,0.024543,0.044101,-0.002598,0.012289,-0.022448,-0.009634,-0.005429,-0.005834,0.00352,0.003167,0.006034,-0.007379,-0.008859,0.005317,-0.000863,-0.006989,-0.001796
    Italic:ITA_Boville_Ernica_IA:RMPR1021,0.126344,0.1 52329,0.034318,-0.014535,0.054164,-0.01506,-0.001175,0.005307,0.019634,0.041914,0.005196,0.010 79,-0.011001,-0.005643,0.004479,-0.016441,-0.010822,-0.001394,0.006662,-0.01113,0.007736,0.007172,-0.007641,-0.00241,0.008981
    Italic:ITA_Etruscan:RMPR473,0.127482,0.158423,0.03 5072,-0.020672,0.046778,-0.005299,0.00094,-0.000923,0.024952,0.03991,-0.002598,0.013188,-0.018434,-0.006606,-0.00665,-0.018828,-0.011865,0.003294,0.01081,0.00025,-0.001747,-0.000495,-0.000986,-0.000361,-0.003592
    Italic:ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA:RMPR435b,0.12862,0. 145221,0.04714,0.005491,0.046162,0.00251,-0.00282,0.002769,0.021475,0.039727,-0.002923,0.012289,-0.021407,-0.016239,0.012622,0.000398,-0.003129,0.003421,0.00176,-0.001251,0.004492,0.003586,-0.00456,-0.003976,0.000239
    Italic:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA:RMPR1016,0.127482,0.1472 52,0.033187,-0.016796,0.044008,-0.008646,-0.00376,-0.004846,0.026588,0.052666,-0.002761,0.015137,-0.036719,-0.008533,-0.009093,0.013392,0.016037,-0.004687,0.003897,0.004127,0.00262,-0.00272,0.001972,-0.007712,-0.008742
    Italic:ITA_Villanovan:RMPR1015,0.12862,0.156392,0. 042238,-0.024225,0.052933,-0.008367,-0.001645,-0.005307,0.023725,0.040274,0.006008,0.006894,-0.018285,-0.019405,-0.003529,0.008751,0.025686,0.002914,0.004651,0.004 252,0.00574,0.006059,-0.006286,-0.010604,-0.002515
    Italic:ITA_Proto-Villanovan:RMPR1,0.125205,0.138112,0.030547,-0.010982,0.023081,-0.011713,0.002115,-0.001846,0.006954,0.021139,0.008119,0.005845,-0.011596,-0.000826,-0.007465,-0.01432,-0.011604,0.005194,0.002765,-0.00988,-0.009733,0.001607,-0.002465,0.003976,-0.005508
    Italic:ITA_Broion_BA:BRC002,0.118376,0.153345,0.03 2809,-0.005491,0.050779,-0.003347,-0.010105,-0.005077,0.022293,0.042279,0.003573,0.006894,-0.010555,-0.020643,-0.012893,0.007292,0.017863,-0.008235,0.00264,-0.003627,0.002745,0.001484,-0.006039,-0.00964,-0.002634
    Italic:ITA_Broion_BA:BRC003,0.122929,0.146236,0.03 9598,-0.013889,0.057549,-0.004741,-0.00282,0.011076,0.024952,0.042825,0.000487,0.0112 4,-0.022299,-0.009496,-0.003122,-0.000796,0.007041,0.002407,0.008296,-0.005127,0.002246,0.004822,0.006532,-0.004097,-0.001437
    Italic:ITA_Broion_BA:BRC007_019,0.120652,0.146236, 0.038466,-0.020672,0.045239,-0.003626,0.00094,-0.007154,0.027406,0.055764,0.001624,0.005545,-0.027205,-0.015551,-0.008686,0.009149,0.030771,0.00076,-0.000754,-0.002251,0.000749,0.000124,-0.002835,-0.000964,0.00467
    Italic:ITA_Broion_EBA:BRC010_018,0.124067,0.161469 ,0.033187,-0.023902,0.059703,-0.011156,-0.00235,0.003461,0.027406,0.054124,-0.006496,0.018284,-0.010555,-0.005505,-0.006515,-0.018828,-0.013299,-0.003041,0.010684,-0.011881,-0.005241,-0.001484,0.001356,-0.007591,-0.008263
    Italic:ITA_ReginaMargherita_BA:GCP002A1,0.121791,0 .133034,0.036204,0.001938,0.052933,0.003626,0.0049 35,0.007154,0.025156,0.031527,0.003085,0.015736,-0.00892,-0.011698,0.001221,0.008486,0.006128,0.00114,0.0003 77,-0.007754,-0.001747,0.004575,-0.008381,-0.003253,-0.002275
    Italic:ITA_ReginaMargherita_BA:GCP003A1,0.130897,0 .151314,0.042992,-0.00969,0.043393,-0.014781,0.00423,-0.009,0.027815,0.030069,-0.003897,0.008093,-0.014717,-0.012248,0.02253,0.018032,0.001304,-0.003294,0.00264,-0.00025,0.001497,0.00272,-0.008997,-0.01446,0.014011
    Italic:ITA_Etruscan:RMPR474b,0.126344,0.149283,0.0 34318,-0.007752,0.036622,-0.005299,0.003995,-0.004615,0.014726,0.028793,-0.002111,0.015286,-0.01115,-0.002064,-0.00285,0.003182,0.006258,0.007221,0.012318,-0.002626,-0.003369,0.008037,0.000863,-0.000482,-0.001796
    ITA_Etruscan_o1:RMPR475b,0.075123,0.157407,0.01433 1,-0.047481,0.045547,-0.017291,-0.013631,0.003692,0.043155,0.043554,0.002598,0.006 444,-0.006392,-0.007982,-0.002714,-0.013259,-0.001434,-0.007855,-0.007793,0,-0.015597,-0.005812,0.000863,-0.007953,0.000359
    ITA_Etruscan_o2:ETR001,0.113823,0.148267,0.003394,-0.030362,0.018773,-0.024821,-0.00282,-0.001846,0.009408,0.027518,0.007632,-0.000599,-0.007284,-0.006881,0.003393,-0.006629,0.01343,-0.000887,-0.002891,-0.006128,0.006863,0.011252,0.005176,0.003735,0.009 34
    ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o:RMPR850,0.105855,0.142174,-0.011691,-0.064277,0.00677,-0.020917,0.00517,-0.004154,0.004295,0.014214,0.008282,0.007044,-0.007136,0.007844,-0.00095,-0.013259,-0.017602,-0.003167,0.013324,-0.004127,-0.004866,-0.008408,0.000123,-0.005422,0.004431
    ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o:RMPR437b,0.118376,0.1563 92,-0.001131,-0.05168,0.020004,-0.01506,-0.004465,-0.004615,0.002863,0.030069,0.002598,0.007793,-0.012636,-0.002064,-0.012486,0.007027,0.019818,-0.002787,0.000251,-0.001126,-0.000624,0.004699,-0.001602,0.002651,-0.000359
    Via_Paisiello:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR116,0.126344,0 .139128,0.053551,0.020026,0.044008,0.001394,0.0004 7,0.007154,0.01943,0.01877,0.000812,0.006444,-0.014123,-0.009496,0.008822,0.004906,-0.001825,-0.002154,0,-0.003752,0.003494,0.002844,-0.005793,0.002048,0.00455
    Via_Paisiello:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR111,0.12862,0. 157407,0.013953,-0.033592,0.024004,-0.005578,0.0047,0.000692,-0.000205,0.038634,-0.001461,0.009591,-0.012042,-0.005505,-0.010043,0.009812,0.009909,-0.005574,0.011187,0.006128,-0.008735,-0.00643,-0.004437,-0.000964,0.008263
    Via_Paisiello:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR113,0.122929,0 .162485,-0.007542,-0.041021,0.018465,-0.017291,-0.00846,-0.008077,0.015339,0.030433,-0.000325,0.004496,-0.008771,-0.007294,-0.005157,-0.016176,-0.011474,-0.005701,0.007793,-0.017133,0.00025,-0.002102,0.001479,-0.011206,-0.002036
    Via_Paisiello:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR114,0.112685,0 .146236,-0.018102,-0.051357,0.007078,-0.010319,-0.005405,-0.010384,0.000614,0.008565,-0.00341,0.01094,-0.003865,0.001376,-0.006107,-0.013789,-0.009648,0.005194,0.003897,-0.007504,-0.004367,0.006677,0.006532,0.003976,-0.000239
    Via_Paisiello:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR115,0.105855,0 .145221,-0.02225,-0.065892,-0.001846,-0.01255,0.00188,0.002538,-0.00225,0.019317,0.002598,0.006294,-0.005054,0.001927,-0.011401,-0.001724,0.009127,-0.000253,0.003645,-0.011631,-0.007112,0.004328,-0.003821,0.004699,-0.003952
    Via_Paisiello:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR131,0.111547,0 .150298,-0.004148,-0.046512,0.006155,-0.004462,-0.008225,-0.004154,0.007567,0.018406,0.001299,0.001798,-0.002527,-0.006055,-0.005293,0.002121,0.007171,0.004307,0.002891,-0.010755,0.000374,0.008656,-0.009983,-0.003615,0.001437
    Casale_del_dolce:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR123,0.10927 ,0.146236,-0.032432,-0.056202,0.008617,-0.030957,0.009635,-0.007615,-0.011862,0.025331,0.007307,0.006444,-0.007284,-0.000413,-0.012486,0.009944,0.015385,-0.005068,-0.004148,-0.010505,0.000499,0.003586,-0.004807,0.001807,0.001197
    Casale_del_dolce:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR125,0.11723 8,0.152329,-0.008297,-0.048127,0.008925,-0.011156,0.0047,-0.006461,-0.000614,0.01877,0.002111,0.000749,-0.015312,-0.011698,-0.00855,0.01127,0.018515,0.006714,0.004274,0.00087 5,0.003494,0.002349,-0.006902,-0.003494,0.001317
    Casale_del_dolce:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR126,0.10130 3,0.150298,-0.038466,-0.074936,-0.005847,-0.020917,-0.00235,-0.007154,-0.003681,0.027882,0.004872,0.002698,-0.000892,0.001514,-0.009772,-0.003447,0.00665,-0.006968,0.002263,-0.009004,-0.004367,0.003091,-0.003328,0.003615,-0.00012
    Casale_del_dolce:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR128,0.11837 6,0.150298,-0.033187,-0.052326,-0.006463,-0.022311,0.001175,-0.011538,-0.018612,0.018953,0.005034,0.006294,-0.007433,0.014588,-0.019137,-0.012994,-0.007171,0.004561,0.003897,-0.013256,-0.003244,0.000618,0.005423,-0.000361,-0.008622
    Marcellino_Pietro:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR132,0.0284 56,0.139128,-0.009051,-0.07429,0.026159,-0.029562,-0.017391,0.003461,0.050517,0.03098,0.004547,-0.001798,0.003865,-0.007569,0.005972,-0.011535,0.001043,-0.003421,-0.025768,-0.003126,-0.008984,-0.017435,0.011339,-0.011086,0.005389
    Mazzano_Romano:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1543,0.09675, 0.141159,-0.026021,-0.063308,0.007078,-0.016455,-0.00047,-0.007154,0.002863,0.022233,0.009094,0.001199,-0.004162,-0.001514,-0.003529,-0.003182,-0.010691,0.00266,-0.006411,-0.009129,-0.004118,-0.006059,-0.006779,-0.006507,0.000239
    Mazzano_Romano:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1544,0.111547 ,0.140143,-0.012445,-0.039406,0.006463,-0.022032,-0.003995,-0.001385,0.005931,0.012939,0.010555,-0.002398,-0.006392,-0.001101,-0.001493,-0.003845,0.002999,0.0019,0.004022,-0.005002,0.004243,0.007296,-0.001602,-0.006507,-0.001676
    Mazzano_Romano:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1545,0.105855 ,0.153345,-0.032809,-0.065569,0.001231,-0.016733,-0.00141,-0.000923,-0.006136,0.019864,0.002436,0.003597,-0.007136,-0.000275,-0.015472,-0.015911,-0.008214,-0.002027,0.005028,-0.007629,0.000499,0.011747,-0.005176,0.005784,-0.007065
    Monterotondo:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1547,0.080814,0 .151314,-0.058831,-0.084626,-0.016003,-0.033746,-0.00517,-0.006923,0.011249,0.015126,0.000812,0.001199,0.009 812,0.00234,-0.004479,-0.001724,0.005346,0.006208,-0.006285,0.002376,0.001248,0.008408,-0.001356,-0.004338,-0.010059
    Monterotondo:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1548,0.112685,0 .146236,-0.012822,-0.044574,-0.004616,-0.021196,0.004935,0.000231,-0.005113,0.012392,-0.003248,-0.003297,-0.000892,-0.003303,-0.006515,0.006364,-0.000261,0.007475,0.002137,-0.00988,-0.013726,0.004822,0.008627,0.006025,-0.005149
    Monterotondo:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1549,0.108132,0 .146236,-0.000377,-0.026486,0.017234,-0.01506,0.005405,-0.006461,0.010226,0.006378,0.003085,-0.009891,0.002379,-0.001514,0.004072,0.003713,-0.00326,0.004561,0.003394,0.003001,-0.000499,0.010758,-0.000863,0.007109,0.005269
    Monterotondo:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1550,0.084229,0 .140143,-0.047517,-0.074613,-0.012925,-0.026216,-0.0094,-0.007154,0.014112,0.005467,-0.000974,-0.002698,0.008622,-0.008257,0.001086,0.014983,0.014864,0.004814,-0.009302,0.002876,-0.001872,0.006183,0.004683,0.000843,-0.001676
    Monterotondo:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1551,0.100164,0 .142174,-0.058454,-0.066861,-0.023081,-0.013387,0.00141,0.002308,-0.026793,0.000729,0.009094,0.003897,-0.015163,0.007432,0.000679,-0.02254,-0.009779,0.002154,0.002011,0.012131,0.007237,0.008 408,-0.000739,-0.004699,0.00479
    Isola_Sacra:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR37,0.126344,0.15 1314,0.061094,0.010982,0.059088,-0.008088,0.00893,-0.000231,0.033542,0.039181,-0.004547,0.01109,-0.015461,-0.022432,0.006786,0.015911,0.02047,-0.000887,-0.005279,0.011881,0.016097,-0.004081,-0.006286,-0.008555,-0.005389
    Isola_Sacra:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR38,0.102441,0.15 7407,-0.0445,-0.08075,-0.017542,-0.031236,-0.00423,-0.008538,-0.013908,0.016766,0.002598,-0.001049,-0.003271,0.006744,-0.007736,-0.010475,-0.011083,0.001014,0.004902,-0.004252,0.001497,0.003462,-0.001232,-0.00012,-0.001796
    Isola_Sacra:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR39,0.111547,0.14 2174,-0.022627,-0.065892,0.002462,-0.020638,-0.00141,-0.006923,-0.004295,0.028064,0.007795,0.004796,-0.005798,0.000138,-0.013843,0.000796,0.006519,0.001394,-0.000628,0.004002,-0.00262,0.000989,-0.00037,-0.006386,-0.000838
    Isola_Sacra:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR40,0.105855,0.15 1314,-0.023004,-0.060078,0.001539,-0.013666,-0.00141,-0.004846,-0.012067,0.027882,0.007307,0.003447,-0.010555,0.000275,-0.017236,-0.000796,0.000261,-0.00076,-0.002388,-0.01113,-0.004742,0.000371,-0.013188,0.004338,-0.000359
    Isola_Sacra:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR41,0.095611,0.13 9128,-0.036204,-0.076551,0.004924,-0.026216,-0.00282,-0.005769,0.002863,0.023508,0.003248,-0.001199,0.001635,0.004404,-0.006379,0.000796,0.002347,-0.003294,-0.001634,-0.005503,-0.005989,0.000866,0.00037,-0.001205,0.003952
    Isola_Sacra:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR42,0.079676,0.14 9283,-0.061094,-0.091409,-0.011079,-0.028168,-0.003525,-0.010153,0.01309,0.010023,0.006171,-0.002548,0.01219,0.004266,-0.009229,0.007292,-0.001173,0.002027,0.004399,0.001251,-0.001248,0.008285,0.001849,0,-0.001916
    Isola_Sacra:IITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR43,0.111547,0.1 53345,-0.032809,-0.067184,0.003693,-0.025379,0.00423,-0.006,-0.007976,0.029704,0.003248,0.011839,-0.014717,0.006881,-0.017101,-0.000663,0.017341,0.003167,0.005028,-0.000625,-0.010981,0.010881,-0.003204,0.010001,-0.00012
    Isola_Sacra:IITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR44,0.117238,0.1 67562,-0.028284,-0.070737,0.004616,-0.019522,0.001175,-0.006692,-0.003886,0.034807,0.006333,0.008243,-0.013379,0.001651,-0.009229,-0.004508,0.017211,-0.00038,-0.003268,-0.007003,-0.000873,0.000618,0.001479,0.008314,0.001437
    Isola_Sacra:IITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR45,0.088782,0.1 51314,-0.026776,-0.064923,0.020619,-0.029005,-0.005405,0.000462,0.015953,0.023508,-0.003573,0.001948,-0.001635,0.00055,-0.010858,-0.017634,-0.011995,-0.004434,-0.003017,-0.012506,-0.007986,-0.003586,-0.003574,-0.001084,0.008023
    Centocelle:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR47,0.106994,0.148 267,-0.006788,-0.046189,0.008617,-0.020359,-0.001175,-0.009692,0.005318,0.023326,0.002273,0.009142,-0.004757,-0.010046,-0.002036,0.002121,0.007562,-0.000633,-0.003771,0.002751,-0.005865,0.002349,0.005546,-0.005181,-0.000958
    Centocelle:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR49,0.110408,0.156 392,-0.00528,-0.040052,0.016618,-0.020917,0.00376,-0.003461,-0.00225,0.017677,0.004384,0.006594,-0.01219,0.002477,-0.010315,0.002387,0.004042,-0.002154,0.00352,-0.004502,0.002496,-0.000124,0.000739,-0.005904,0.003233
    Centocelle:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR50,0.100164,0.150 298,-0.024136,-0.049742,0.008309,-0.009203,0.00141,-0.000692,-0.005113,0.014214,0.000974,0.002997,0.00223,0.0050 92,-0.003257,-0.012198,-0.009648,0.007601,0.006159,-0.008379,0,0.007419,0.001972,0.000602,0.001557
    Centocelle:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR51,0.112685,0.148 267,-0.02225,-0.048127,0.014464,-0.029284,0.000235,-0.011999,0.003272,0.024237,0.002273,0.003597,-0.007284,-0.001789,-0.00475,-0.007558,-0.011474,0.004054,0.011313,-0.003877,0.001747,0.006554,0.003574,0.005784,-0.003952
    ANAS:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR66,0.111547,0.158423,-0.033187,-0.06783,0.002154,-0.026216,0.00094,-0.002538,-0.013703,0.025331,0.012991,-0.004196,-0.001041,0.00523,-0.022937,-0.014983,-0.005867,0.000507,0.004902,-0.015257,-0.005241,0.00272,-0.003451,0.00253,0.000958
    ANAS:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR67,0.080814,0.136081,-0.05506,-0.061047,-0.022466,-0.013666,0.00564,-0.008769,-0.014112,-0.007654,0.010068,-0.002698,0.008474,-0.002064,-0.01045,0.013922,0.008736,0.002534,-0.00176,-0.002001,-0.000873,-0.005812,0.005423,-0.002048,0.011137
    ANAS:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR68,0.091058,0.144205,-0.064111,-0.075259,-0.024004,-0.022869,-0.00047,-0.01523,-0.013499,-0.003462,0.003248,0.001049,0.005203,-0.003165,-0.000679,-0.004508,-0.010431,0.001647,0.007165,-0.007504,0.004991,-0.000866,0.004437,0.000602,0.000838
    ANAS:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR69,0.120652,0.146236,-0.016593,-0.05168,0.004308,-0.019522,-0.0047,-0.007846,-0.021884,0.027882,0.000325,0.01079,-0.014271,-0.003853,-0.020087,0.007558,0.034161,0.003421,0.010559,0.006 003,-0.008111,0.001855,-0.005916,-0.005422,-0.007185
    ANAS:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR70,0.09675,0.157407,-0.0445,-0.085595,-0.009232,-0.023706,-0.004465,-0.007615,0.010431,0.00656,0.004547,-0.003747,0.0055,-0.002064,-0.009772,-0.00053,0.00352,-0.00152,0.001383,0.004252,-0.010357,0.007048,0,-0.006025,0.002874
    ANAS:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR71,0.10927,0.158423,-0.044123,-0.068153,-0.003693,-0.029841,0.001645,-0.00923,-0.013294,0.022051,0.001949,0.002698,-0.014123,0.003853,-0.020087,-0.011005,0.009648,0.002407,0.002137,0.005503,-0.004866,-0.00643,0.002588,0.007591,-0.003473
    ANAS:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR72,0.113823,0.145221,-0.033564,-0.073321,-0.003693,-0.030957,0.008695,-0.008538,-0.005931,0.028976,0.009256,0.005545,0.002676,0.002 202,-0.010315,-0.002254,0.007432,0.002027,0.005908,-0.002501,0.000749,0.002968,-0.008504,-0.001566,0.006107
    ANAS:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR73,0.088782,0.153345,-0.028661,-0.066215,0.000308,-0.01757,-0.005875,-0.005769,0.006749,0.025695,0.002436,-0.001349,0.0055,-0.00812,-0.002443,0.013657,0.014733,-0.003927,-0.002011,0.006628,-0.008984,-0.001607,-0.003697,0.003374,0.005987
    Viale_Rossini:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR75,0.099026,0. 153345,-0.037335,-0.070737,-0.002462,-0.029841,0.005875,-0.011769,-0.001227,0.016948,0.00682,0.002698,-0.005649,0.007569,-0.019137,0.002254,0.001695,0.000253,-0.001383,-0.007629,0.003619,-0.002102,-0.00493,-0.005181,0.008622
    Viale_Rossini:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR76,0.095611,0. 142174,-0.042992,-0.064923,-0.011079,-0.015618,-0.006815,-0.007384,-0.007976,0.010934,0.004547,0.001349,0.005798,-0.009909,-0.012079,0.00358,0.026729,-0.008108,-0.002388,0.007003,-0.005116,0.004575,-0.003944,0.008073,-0.000359
    Viale_Rossini:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR78,0.113823,0. 157407,-0.031301,-0.079458,0.002154,-0.03012,-0.000705,-0.007846,-0.007772,0.019317,0.002436,0.005095,-0.009366,0.008395,-0.013436,-0.017369,-0.002217,0.000253,0.010936,-0.006503,-0.007237,-0.000989,-0.006286,-0.000482,0.005389
    Viale_Rossini:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR80,0.068294,0. 157407,-0.013576,-0.066861,0.020004,-0.031794,-0.0094,-0.003461,0.032928,0.023326,-0.000487,0.002398,0.00669,-0.008808,-0.001764,-0.004773,-0.00691,-0.004181,-0.018729,-0.007504,-0.006114,-0.013354,0.010599,-0.004097,0
    Viale_Rossini:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR81,0.108132,0. 15436,-0.026398,-0.063308,0.005232,-0.027052,0.000705,0.008307,-0.001432,0.025149,0.005521,-0.003897,-0.002825,-0.005367,-0.010315,-0.001989,0.012126,0.004307,0.008422,0.001501,-0.010856,0.001484,0.00419,-0.001205,-0.001197
    Civitanova_Marche:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR835,0.1024 41,0.14319,-0.006411,-0.038114,0.017849,-0.017012,-0.010575,0.002077,0.001023,0.019135,0.006008,0.001 199,-0.009217,-0.004542,-0.008822,0.009679,0.003912,0.003801,-0.003142,-0.007754,-0.004492,-0.005193,0.005176,-0.001928,-0.001197
    Civitanova_Marche:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR836,0.1195 14,0.158423,-0.007542,-0.037791,0.011387,-0.01757,-0.005875,-0.009692,-0.007567,0.024966,0,-0.004496,-0.014717,-0.002202,-0.014386,-0.001591,-0.003781,-0.007728,0.013073,-0.004752,-0.004866,0.011252,-0.000493,-0.00482,-0.002874
    Palestrina_Antina:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR436,0.1195 14,0.145221,-0.016216,-0.044897,0.00954,-0.015897,-0.00376,-0.008307,0.001841,0.014214,0.003573,0.005695,-0.004162,-0.011285,-0.011536,0.00716,0.02021,0,0.00352,0.001626,-0.000873,0.010881,0.001109,0.003615,-0.000479


    Some interesting findings:
     

    One Etruscan is closer to many Late antiquity samples from 1000+ years later than to other Italics from the same era:
    Distance to: ITA_Etruscan:RMPR474b
    0.02454511 Crypta_Balbi:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR110
    0.02956518 Mausoleo_di_Augusto:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR33
    0.03111878 Crypta_Balbi:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR109
    0.03345843 Italic:ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA:RMPR851
    0.03830298 Italic:ITA_ReginaMargherita_BA:GCP002A1
    0.03835139 Italic:ITA_Broion_BA:BRC003
    0.03847931 Celio:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR105
    0.03955475 Crypta_Balbi:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR108
    0.04025291 Italic:ITA_Etruscan:RMPR473
    0.04027628 Italic:ITA_Proto-Villanovan:RMPR1
    0.04105747 Italic:ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA:RMPR435b
    0.04445836 Italic:ITA_Broion_BA:BRC002
    0.04573210 Italic:ITA_Boville_Ernica_IA:RMPR1021
    0.04661373 Italic:ITA_Villanovan:RMPR1015
    0.04688079 Italic:Bell_Beaker_ITA:I2478
    0.04792391 Italic:ITA_ReginaMargherita_BA:GCP003A1
    0.04869939 Italic:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA:RMPR1016
    0.04877292 Via_Paisiello:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR116
    0.04924517 Via_Paisiello:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR111
    0.05036891 Celio:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR36
    0.05088781 Italic:Bell_Beaker_ITA:I1979
    0.05266846 Italic:ITA_Broion_BA:BRC007_019
    0.05497074 San_Ercolano:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR121
    0.05626887 San_Ercolano:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR120


     

    Many if it not all the East-Med samples are from outside of Rome, either outskirts or other part of Lazio: (Isola Sacra is near the coast, ANAS and Marcellino Pietro are outside the walls, Monterotondo e Casale del Dolce are far from Rome)

    Distance to: Lebanese_Christian
    0.02523012 Isola_Sacra:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR42
    0.02912837 ANAS:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR70
    0.02991261 Monterotondo:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1547
    0.03342902 Monterotondo:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1550
    0.03416475 Isola_Sacra:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR41
    0.03762367 Viale_Rossini:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR75
    0.03832137 Casale_del_dolce:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR126
    0.03967908 Isola_Sacra:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR38
    0.04054572 ANAS:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR68
    0.04460300 ANAS:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR73
    0.04516446 Viale_Rossini:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR76
    0.04561201 ANAS:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR67
    0.04565795 Marcellino_Pietro:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR130
    0.04595303 ANAS:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR72
    0.04658689 Marcellino_Pietro:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR134
    0.04955686 Mazzano_Romano:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1543
    0.05095200 Mausoleo_di_Augusto:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR34
    0.05176499 Via_Paisiello:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR115
    0.05224876 Viale_Rossini:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR81
    0.05258617 Mazzano_Romano:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR1545
    0.05276334 Isola_Sacra:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR39
    0.05283175 ANAS:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR71
    0.05563073 Viale_Rossini:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR78
    0.05588335 ANAS:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR66
    0.05746569 Casale_del_dolce:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR123
    Last edited by Ariel90; 06-06-2021 at 09:43 PM.

  2. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Ariel90 For This Useful Post:

     Cascio (06-07-2021),  Dewsloth (06-10-2021),  grumpydaddybear (06-06-2021)

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    There are a couple of things that I have seen yesterday in this Italian documentary on Rai Storia, from 1983, and that no one has mentioned about Italian admixture.

    https://www.raiplay.it/video/2021/06...899a52cf1.html

    First, the appearance during the late copper age in Campania, Sicily and Sardinia of new people, metallurgist and warriors, whose ceramics, figurines and tombs dug in the rock had clearly Anatolian or Aegean features.

    Second, the bronze age CiviltÓ Appenninica, which spread from Calabria to Romagna, and whose dna must have ended up in the Italic admixture.

    Do we have any sample from these cultures? Was any of the samples from the recent Italian paper about these cultures?
    Last edited by patrizio22; 06-07-2021 at 10:12 AM. Reason: clarity

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    There are a couple of things that I have seen yesterday in this Italian documentary on Rai Storia, from 1983, and that no one has mentioned about Italian admixture.

    https://www.raiplay.it/video/2021/06...899a52cf1.html

    First, the appearance during the late copper age in Campania, Sicily and Sardinia of new people, metallurgist and warriors, whose ceramics, figurines and tombs dug in the rock had clearly Anatolian or Aegean features.

    Second, the bronze age CiviltÓ Appenninica, which spread from Calabria to Romagna, and whose dna must have ended up in the Italic admixture.

    Do we have any sample from these cultures? Was any of the samples from the recent Italian paper about these cultures?

    You are probably referring to the copper age Rinaldone and Gaudo culture. I think we do not have samples from Copper age central and southern Italy


    There is this sample from appennine culture


    ITA_ReginaMargherita_BA:GCP003A1
    1600 BC
    60% EEF
    15% WHG
    25% STEPPE

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  7. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    You are probably referring to the copper age Rinaldone and Gaudo culture. I think we do not have samples from Copper age central and southern Italy


    There is this sample from appennine culture


    ITA_ReginaMargherita_BA:GCP003A1
    1600 BC
    60% EEF
    15% WHG
    25% STEPPE
    I think in the documentary they meant Gaudo and other Sicilian and Sardinian copper age cultures, whose name I don't know, not Rinaldone. They said the artifacts and tombs had Anatolian features. Wow, 25 per cent steppe in appennine culture? I thought that Terramare, Polada, etc. were indoeuropean and appennine culture was instead old europe.
    Last edited by patrizio22; 06-07-2021 at 10:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    I think in the documentary they meant Gaudo and other Sicilian and Sardinian copper age cultures, whose name I don't know, not Rinaldone. They said the artifacts and tombs had Anatolian features. Wow, 25 per cent steppe in appennine culture? I thought that Terramare, Polada, etc. were indoeuropean and appennine culture was instead old europe.
    It is diffucult to have a high resolution picture at the moment. I think Regina Margherita is a poladian movement to central Italy. Appennine was likely the culture where proto-italic coalesced IMHO. I tend to think now that Polada was still similar to ligurian ( intermediate between celtic and italic) But keep in mind we have R1b Bell Beaker in Sicily as early as 2300/2200 BC.

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    "We have already in the 7th century BCE an Etruscan vase with a depiction of Aeneas on it, so that's very early, and in the tales of Homer, Aeneas is only a minor figure, so I think that just a wish to belong to the Homer epics is not a good explanation of this situation."

    - Alwin Kloekhorst from his lecture: "THE LINGUISTIC LANDSCAPE OF MIDDLE AND LATE BRONZE AGE WESTERN ANATOLIA"

    I think there is ample evidence that there were migrations from Troy to Italy, but my opinion is that they did not bring the Etruscan languages there.

    The myths are clear that "Dardanoi" migrated to Italy and found Etruscans and Latins already there. Dardanoi are most probably a Balkanic IE group originally.

    This would explain why "Illyrian" names appear among Etruscans. There is evidence that there was an "Illyrian" injection into the Etruscan group. This should be taken note of so that this group is not claimed to be the source of the Etruscan language:

     


    Link, quote starts at 15:00:

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    It is diffucult to have a high resolution picture at the moment. I think Regina Margherita is a poladian movement to central Italy. Appennine was likely the culture where proto-italic coalesced IMHO. I tend to think now that Polada was still similar to ligurian ( intermediate between celtic and italic) But keep in mind we have R1b Bell Beaker in Sicily as early as 2300/2200 BC.
    I'm not sure about Lazio but in Tuscany in the EBA the material culture resembled that of Polada, the same is true also for Corsica and Sardinia

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    You are probably referring to the copper age Rinaldone and Gaudo culture. I think we do not have samples from Copper age central and southern Italy


    There is this sample from appennine culture


    ITA_ReginaMargherita_BA:GCP003A1
    1600 BC
    60% EEF
    15% WHG
    25% STEPPE
    We do have a couple of Copper Age samples:

    Sample: R1014
    Y-DNA: H-L901
    Site: Monte San Biagio
    Labeled Culture: Rinaldone Gaudo
    Date: 3500 - 2500 BCE

    Sample: R4
    Y-DNA: G-F1193
    Site: Grotta Continenza - Rimosso
    Labeled Culture: Copper Age
    Date: 2950 - 2880 calBCE

    From Antonio et al: "During the late Neolithic and Copper Age, there is a small, gradual rebound of WHG ancestry (Fig. 2B and fig. S24), mirroring findings from ancient DNA studies of other European populations from these periods (10, 13, 18, 20). This may reflect admixture with communities that had high levels of WHG ancestry persisting into the Neolithic, locally or in neighboring regions (tables S9 to S11)."

    One thing that stands out from the rest of Europe is that Neolithic and Late Copper Age samples from Italy has CHG ancestry as well.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Was it confirmed or just a rumour that I1 appeared among Etruscans?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    I don't think you understand the context of this quote, Juvenal was one the craziest author in ancient history, in him you will find everything and the contrary of it. Obviously it's an exaggeration, it's called satire for a reason. Juvenal hated the Greeks, he hated them because, according to him, they were intelligent, polite and gay. You don't hear of him a lot today because he was incredibly racist and homophobic (in a satirical context), even if he was the son of a freedman. There is a huge problem with ancient quotes taken out of context. And honestly, the fact that people complained about immigration is evidence that were at least some natives in the city. But who are the natives among the Imperial samples that we have? That's the question. What I'm arguing is that Augustean-era Romans weren't that similar to the Latini 700 years before. Evidence: 1) No Italic or close to Italic in early Imperial era 2) The only sample that we have that is undoubtedly Republican-Era is close to early Imperial samples 3) Modern Italians resemble the early Imperial-Era Romans even the ones with hardly any Germanic admixture (like Marche or Abruzzo)

    Some people in this forum think that Romans were 100% Italic by Caesar and 100% east-med by Nero. I have a problem believing that. And people try to explain the fact that Italians have more Italic compared to the Imperial aveage with some theories that IMO are obviously wrong, there is no massive Germanic admix in Italy, and certainly Italy didn't get invaded by Italics in the fifth century.
    I never said that Romans were 100% east-med by Nero. In fact that wasn't at all my point, I was adding to etrusco's response to you when you said the Levant was sparsely populated. The satire of Juvenal is obviously exaggerated and written in for satirical purposes, if you had seen my response earlier, I phrased it as "funny satire" but I changed it to "interesting" because I didn't want any wrong connotations to be perceived from the word "funny". In no way do I believe the population-wide shift was brought by Levantines straight from the Levant, that's silly.

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