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Thread: The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2,000-year archeogenomic time transe

  1. #221
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    Another thing too, Tyrsenian langauges I am very doubtful were from Urnfield Culture, it was probably on the outskirts, the main issue is identifying who was who in Bronze Age Italy. In terms of Etruscan being a remnant Neolithic language, this looks to be confirmed from the current data, if even getting Rhaetic or Lemnian samples and if its still confusing, we should look to the Uniparental data. With the current data we should be looking potentially at the G samples. The current Etruscan lineage we have under J2b-L283>CTS6190 suggests a Balkan connection whether it be the Etruscans ancestors or it may tie down to what Johane Derite posted with the Dardanoi connection.
    My Y Line: J2a-L210>Z489>Z482>Y15222>Y15245

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36>Y156527

    Great Grandparent (Maternal Grandfather's Mother's line) Y: R1b-U152>L2

    Great Grandparent (Maternal Grandmother's Mother's line) Y: I2-P78>A427>S23612

    Other Y lines Confirmed: 3x GG on Maternal side: J2a-S25258>SK1336, 3x GG on Maternal side: J2a-M67, 4x GG on Maternal side: R1b-PF7562, 5x GG on Maternal side: E-V13, 5x GG on Maternal side: R2-L266

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  3. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    While I agree with the first part, the second part is difficult for 1 reason the language relationship is much younger than ANF, for Lemnos either it was Etruscan like or it was like the Outliers.
    You think It might be a progressive language familly of ANF+WHG or what else? Where we can categorize them?

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  5. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    You think It might be a progressive language familly of ANF+WHG or what else? Where we can categorize them?
    I think ANF+WHG was the language family of Nuragics, Basque and Iberian languages, i’m more inclined to believe the Tyrsenian language would be a remanent of the ANF+Iran Neo/CHG or the Cardial Ware Neolithic peoples. Etruscans should/probably come from the Adriatic side of Italy. It’s very possible that Eastern Italy could have been a bastion for surviving Cardial Ware Culture/language look at North Picentine (still poorly understood and not IE).
    My Y Line: J2a-L210>Z489>Z482>Y15222>Y15245

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36>Y156527

    Great Grandparent (Maternal Grandfather's Mother's line) Y: R1b-U152>L2

    Great Grandparent (Maternal Grandmother's Mother's line) Y: I2-P78>A427>S23612

    Other Y lines Confirmed: 3x GG on Maternal side: J2a-S25258>SK1336, 3x GG on Maternal side: J2a-M67, 4x GG on Maternal side: R1b-PF7562, 5x GG on Maternal side: E-V13, 5x GG on Maternal side: R2-L266

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  7. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nino90 View Post
    It is not over 50% in whole North and central Italy. But it is around 30-50% In nearly whole central to North Italy.

    It is no doubt the biggest Y-dna haplogroup. And also important to note - Of course did not ALL Italic people had the same haplogroup in ancient times.
    But as seen on this map. It is most likely that R1b-U152 was the dominant.

    Attachment 45016

    You are even Tuscan and a U152 descendent.

    I am also part Tuscan and U152. Many other central and North italians members here belongs to some U152 clade.


    That map shows a higher concentration of the clade in southern Portugal. I wonder if that has anything to do with the Ligurian connection a lot of people theorize with the Conii tribe? But I don’t want to go off topic just rlly curious.
    Last edited by Luso; 06-08-2021 at 01:47 PM.
    History of the Algarve: Hidden Content

    Paternal Lineage- R-Z225: São Bartolomeu de Messines- em Silves, Portugal

    Maternal Lineage: H1c3: Estrela de Monchique- em Silves, Portugal

    Silves, Portugal: Hidden Content

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  9. #225
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    More on etruscan and IE

    avil- meaning “year” there is a possible link because we have IE *ayu-, Proto-Indo-European root meaning "vital force, life; long life, eternity." Sanskrit ayu- "life;" Avestan aiiu "age, life(time);" Greek aiōn "age, vital force; a period of existence, a lifetime, a generation; a long space of time," in plural, "eternity;" Latin aevum "space of time, eternity;" Gothic aiws "age, eternity," Old Norse ævi "lifetime," German ewig "everlasting," Old English a "ever, always."

    fa- meaning “away” *apo-, Proto-Indo-European root meaning "off, away." Sanskrit apa "away from," Avestan apa "away from," Greek apo "from, away from; after; in descent from," Latin ab "away from, from," Gothic af, Old English of "away from."

    tva-, tu- tu(ve)- “to place, put” this is evident the paleo european ( west eurasian) connection with PIE dhē-, Proto-Indo-European root meaning "to set, put." Sanskrit dadhati "puts, places;" Avestan dadaiti "he puts;" Old Persian ada "he made;" Hittite dai- "to place;" Greek tithenai "to put, set, place;" Latin facere "to make, do; perform; bring about;" Lithuanian dėti "to put;" Polish dziać się "to be happening;" Russian delat' "to do;" Old High German tuon, German tun, Old English don "to do."


    tmia- meaning “building” . Very evident. This is probably an EEF word entered during the Sredni Stog period . Sanskrit damah "house;" Avestan demana- "house;" Greek domos "house," despotēs "master, lord;" Latin domus "house," dominus "master of a household;" Armenian tanu-ter "house-lord;" Old Church Slavonic domu, Russian dom "house;" Lithuanian dimstis "enclosed court, property;" Old Norse topt "homestead."


    stay tuned ......this is only the beginning. We are dealing with roots that produced hundred/thousand words in all iE branches. This is not a drill
    Last edited by etrusco; 06-08-2021 at 03:03 PM.

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  11. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grabovio View Post
    That PCA is not designed for populations with Taforalt such as Iberians, you can check whether this component is taken into account or not by simply adding guanche or north africans to the plot.
    As for NE Italians I believe there's an additional central European layer in the Venetian plain dating to the late middle ages, esp. along and east of Piave river ; German - Bavarian ? - farmers/craftsmen and slavic refugees in its eastern portion are well attested in the area :



    http://www.ascenedese.it/germani-sla...-nel-medioevo/
    IIRC....most of the bavarian in that period that moved to Veneto/Friuli where lumberjacks , hired by the venetian republic to manage the forests of the alps....they where not allowed to bring women and children and so in time married local women .............they are still there today known as the cimbri

    The earlier german migration was in the 11th century from Swabia ......places like Merlengo, ( german word is Marling ) Montebelluna, Pederobba areas of the treviso province is where they settled.

    i do not recall many slavs except in east tyrol or the paper from a few years ago.....which had some slavs from the period in question in the friulian alps ( carnian alps )

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3658181/
    Last edited by vettor; 06-08-2021 at 06:07 PM.


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-CTS6397 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

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  13. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    Another thing too, Tyrsenian langauges I am very doubtful were from Urnfield Culture, it was probably on the outskirts, the main issue is identifying who was who in Bronze Age Italy. In terms of Etruscan being a remnant Neolithic language, this looks to be confirmed from the current data, if even getting Rhaetic or Lemnian samples and if its still confusing, we should look to the Uniparental data. With the current data we should be looking potentially at the G samples. The current Etruscan lineage we have under J2b-L283>CTS6190 suggests a Balkan connection whether it be the Etruscans ancestors or it may tie down to what Johane Derite posted with the Dardanoi connection.
    considering that the oldest Rhaetic script found is from the 6th century BC, we have no idea if they got their previous language from etruscan or venetic or both as both have older scripts


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-CTS6397 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    considering that the oldest Rhaetic script found is from the 6th century BC, we have no idea if they got their previous language from etruscan or venetic or both as both have older scripts
    Do the areas where Venetic scripts and Rhaetic scripts are found overlaps with one another?
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Do the areas where Venetic scripts and Rhaetic scripts are found overlaps with one another?
    yes ...............Venetic main area initally was around modern padua, treviso, Este ...........in the west joined the raetic and etruscan around Cologna Veneta ( is next to modern Verona ) https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...scriptions.jpg and in the east it bordered the Illyrians ( ie, Histrians and Liburnians if one classifies them as Illyrian ) around ancient Opitergium (Oderzo currently in treviso province of veneto region)

    venetic and raetic are both found in magre

    Raetic alphabets

    The alphabet of Sanzeno (also, of Bolzano), about 100 Raetic inscriptions. The alphabet of Magrè (near Schio), east Raetian inscriptions.
    Venetic alphabet
    Alphabet of Este: Similar but not identical to that of Magrè, Venetic inscriptions.

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/635889?seq=1


    IMO, I think the change of etruscan from non indo-european is the time it mixed with raetic ................venetic was always indo-european


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-CTS6397 ydna
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  17. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Do the areas where Venetic scripts and Rhaetic scripts are found overlaps with one another?
    https://www.univie.ac.at/raetica/wiki/Script


    conclude your own opinion ..............it is not that important as etruscan changed and the lemnian etruscan is too young to associate it with raetic ..................it was most likely written by a etruscan trader


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