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Thread: The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2,000-year archeogenomic time transe

  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    https://www.univie.ac.at/raetica/wiki/Script


    conclude your own opinion ..............it is not that important as etruscan changed and the lemnian etruscan is too young to associate it with raetic ..................it was most likely written by a etruscan trader
    Excellent resource Vettor. Thanks!
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
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    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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     Cascio (06-10-2021)

  3. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Excellent resource Vettor. Thanks!
    np

    The only thing I am currently working on is that the Eugenai had a group called the camuni as one of their tribes .............are these related to the camunic

    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...id=euganei-geo


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    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

  4. #243
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    My very unscientific two cents...
    -Villanovan = neolithic Italy ppl (descended from Cardial) + J2 population from Croatia.
    -Etruscan = Villanovan descendants + a bit of Urnfield input via Alps/Veneto
    -Lemnos & Rhaetic texts = Etruscan as second language by local traders/ppl

  5. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by bibiloni View Post
    My very unscientific two cents...
    -Villanovan = neolithic Italy ppl (descended from Cardial) + J2 population from Croatia.
    -Etruscan = Villanovan descendants + a bit of Urnfield input via Alps/Veneto
    -Lemnos & Rhaetic texts = Etruscan as second language by local traders/ppl
    I do not recall any villanovan on the northern side of the Po river

    Umbri had more urnfield that the etruscans

    sample R1 is proto-villanovan ...........I think she should be relabeled as other than proto-villanovan....... proto-villanovan does not make any sense.
    Last edited by vettor; 06-10-2021 at 08:36 PM.


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  6. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    Honestly the small elite from Anatolia theory is not totally unreasonable, but it's unlikely, there were some people with Anatolian or CHG ancestry in the pensinula in the Iron age but not enough to imagine a significant language shift. I still think that we have many gaps with ancient Italian samples in the Iron Age, all the Eastern coast and all the south are basically almost unsampled..
    Honestly, I never believed the Eastern theory about the origin of the Etruscans or their elite either.
    [1] "distance%=2.9299"

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    BALTIC_BA,12.6
    GANJ_DAREH,10.8
    CHG,10.4
    MIDDLE_EAST,10
    ANE,2.4
    TAFORALT,1.8
    WHG,0.6

  7. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    I think that the Via Paisiello early Imperial samples might be close to your Imperial average without outliers. Also they might be similar to provincial Romans.

    Btw, I grouped all the romans samples from Iron Age to Late Antiquity, if you want to do something with it, here is the list.


    Some interesting findings:

    One Etruscan is closer to many Late antiquity samples from 1000+ years later than to other Italics from the same era:
    Distance to: ITA_Etruscan:RMPR474b
    0.02454511 Crypta_Balbi:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR110
    0.02956518 Mausoleo_di_Augusto:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR33
    0.03111878 Crypta_Balbi:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR109
    0.03345843 Italic:ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA:RMPR851
    0.03830298 Italic:ITA_ReginaMargherita_BA:GCP002A1
    0.03835139 Italic:ITA_Broion_BA:BRC003
    0.03847931 Celio:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR105
    0.03955475 Crypta_Balbi:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR108
    0.04025291 Italic:ITA_Etruscan:RMPR473
    0.04027628 Italic:ITA_Proto-Villanovan:RMPR1
    0.04105747 Italic:ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA:RMPR435b
    0.04445836 Italic:ITA_Broion_BA:BRC002
    0.04573210 Italic:ITA_Boville_Ernica_IA:RMPR1021
    0.04661373 Italic:ITA_Villanovan:RMPR1015
    0.04688079 Italic:Bell_Beaker_ITA:I2478
    0.04792391 Italic:ITA_ReginaMargherita_BA:GCP003A1
    0.04869939 Italic:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA:RMPR1016
    0.04877292 Via_Paisiello:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR116
    0.04924517 Via_Paisiello:ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR111
    0.05036891 Celio:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR36
    0.05088781 Italic:Bell_Beaker_ITA:I1979
    0.05266846 Italic:ITA_Broion_BA:BRC007_019
    0.05497074 San_Ercolano:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR121
    0.05626887 San_Ercolano:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR120
    RMPR116 looks like he's half Germanic and half Imperial Roman:

    Using only Iron Age populations:

    Target: ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR116
    Distance: 0.8179% / 0.00817881
    27.8 VK2020_NOR_Mid_IA
    14.8 ITA_Boville_Ernica_IA
    13.0 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA
    13.0 ITA_Sardinia_IA
    11.8 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    7.2 VK2020_SWE_Oland_IA
    3.4 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
    3.4 VK2020_DNK_Jutland_IA
    2.4 England_IA
    2.2 FIN_Levanluhta_IA
    0.8 EGY_Hellenistic
    0.2 HRV_IA

    -or roughly-

    Parent 1
    27.8 VK2020_NOR_Mid_IA
    7.2 VK2020_SWE_Oland_IA
    3.4 VK2020_DNK_Jutland_IA
    2.4 England_IA
    2.2 FIN_Levanluhta_IA

    Parent 2
    14.8 ITA_Boville_Ernica_IA
    13.0 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA
    13.0 ITA_Sardinia_IA
    11.8 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    3.4 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
    0.8 EGY_Hellenistic
    0.2 HRV_IA

    His Y-DNA is J-Z631 and his mtDNA is U3a2c

    I wonder how close the "Parent 2" looks to Etruscan?
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

  8. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dewsloth View Post
    RMPR116 looks like he's half Germanic and half Imperial Roman:

    Using only Iron Age populations:

    Target: ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR116
    Distance: 0.8179% / 0.00817881
    27.8 VK2020_NOR_Mid_IA
    14.8 ITA_Boville_Ernica_IA
    13.0 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA
    13.0 ITA_Sardinia_IA
    11.8 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    7.2 VK2020_SWE_Oland_IA
    3.4 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
    3.4 VK2020_DNK_Jutland_IA
    2.4 England_IA
    2.2 FIN_Levanluhta_IA
    0.8 EGY_Hellenistic
    0.2 HRV_IA

    -or roughly-

    Parent 1
    27.8 VK2020_NOR_Mid_IA
    7.2 VK2020_SWE_Oland_IA
    3.4 VK2020_DNK_Jutland_IA
    2.4 England_IA
    2.2 FIN_Levanluhta_IA

    Parent 2
    14.8 ITA_Boville_Ernica_IA
    13.0 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA
    13.0 ITA_Sardinia_IA
    11.8 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    3.4 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
    0.8 EGY_Hellenistic
    0.2 HRV_IA

    His Y-DNA is J-Z631 and his mtDNA is U3a2c

    I wonder how close the "Parent 2" looks to Etruscan?
    You are right, he's quite far away, I was highlighting the first Imperial sample, compared to the first late antiquity samples that show up in similarity with that Etruscan. But RMPR110, RMPR33 and RMPR109 are late antiquity and much closer, one (Mausoleo di Augusto RMPR33 is 300 - 700 CE, and could also be Imperial at the end of the day). Also the Szolad samples are quite close, I wonder if they show up mixed with that method...
    Last edited by Ariel90; 06-10-2021 at 09:55 PM.

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  10. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    You are right, he's quite far away, I was highlighting the first Imperial sample, compared to the first late antiquity samples that show up in similarity with that Etruscan. But RMPR110, RMPR33 and RMPR109 are late antiquity and much closer, one (Mausoleo di Augusto RMPR33 is 300 - 700 CE, and could also be Imperial at the end of the day). Also the Szolad samples are quite close, I wonder if they show up mixed with that method...
    Using IA only scaled samples:

    Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR33
    Distance: 1.3617% / 0.01361670
    39.8 BGR_IA
    20.8 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    13.0 VK2020_SWE_Oland_IA
    7.2 DEU_Singen_EIA
    4.2 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
    3.8 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
    3.4 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
    3.4 VK2020_NOR_North_IA
    2.4 PAK_Aligrama_IA
    1.6 EGY_Hellenistic
    0.4 VK2020_DNK_Jutland_IA

    For comparison Mausoleo di Augusto RMPR31 (who is a DF19 and probably a wayward Germanic):

    Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR31
    Distance: 2.4417% / 0.02441658
    26.8 VK2020_DNK_Jutland_IA
    22.6 VK2020_SWE_Oland_IA
    15.6 FIN_Levanluhta_IA_o
    11.0 ITA_Sardinia_IA
    8.6 VK2020_NOR_South_IA
    8.2 BGR_IA
    6.6 Baltic_EST_IA
    0.6 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o

    Edit: Here are 110 and 109:

    Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR110
    Distance: 1.6082% / 0.01608201
    31.4 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    27.2 FIN_Levanluhta_IA_o
    15.2 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
    11.8 ITA_Sardinia_IA
    10.2 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
    3.4 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
    0.8 MNG_EIA_8


    Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR109
    Distance: 1.6212% / 0.01621172
    34.6 ITA_Sardinia_IA
    26.0 BGR_IA
    20.6 VK2020_DNK_Jutland_IA
    13.2 VK2020_SWE_Oland_IA
    2.4 VK2020_NOR_South_IA
    1.4 CHE_IA
    0.6 HRV_IA
    0.6 KEN_Pastoral_IA
    0.4 EGY_Late_Period
    0.2 CHN_Upper_Yellow_River_IA
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

  11. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dewsloth View Post
    Using IA only scaled samples:

    Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR33
    Distance: 1.3617% / 0.01361670
    39.8 BGR_IA
    20.8 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    13.0 VK2020_SWE_Oland_IA
    7.2 DEU_Singen_EIA
    4.2 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
    3.8 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
    3.4 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
    3.4 VK2020_NOR_North_IA
    2.4 PAK_Aligrama_IA
    1.6 EGY_Hellenistic
    0.4 VK2020_DNK_Jutland_IA

    For comparison Mausoleo di Augusto RMPR31 (who is a DF19 and probably a wayward Germanic):

    Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR31
    Distance: 2.4417% / 0.02441658
    26.8 VK2020_DNK_Jutland_IA
    22.6 VK2020_SWE_Oland_IA
    15.6 FIN_Levanluhta_IA_o
    11.0 ITA_Sardinia_IA
    8.6 VK2020_NOR_South_IA
    8.2 BGR_IA
    6.6 Baltic_EST_IA
    0.6 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o

    Edit: Here are 110 and 109:

    Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR110
    Distance: 1.6082% / 0.01608201
    31.4 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    27.2 FIN_Levanluhta_IA_o
    15.2 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
    11.8 ITA_Sardinia_IA
    10.2 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
    3.4 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
    0.8 MNG_EIA_8


    Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR109
    Distance: 1.6212% / 0.01621172
    34.6 ITA_Sardinia_IA
    26.0 BGR_IA
    20.6 VK2020_DNK_Jutland_IA
    13.2 VK2020_SWE_Oland_IA
    2.4 VK2020_NOR_South_IA
    1.4 CHE_IA
    0.6 HRV_IA
    0.6 KEN_Pastoral_IA
    0.4 EGY_Late_Period
    0.2 CHN_Upper_Yellow_River_IA
    Do you think that R116 is just 50-50?. I think he might be a langue d'oc speaker .

    Distance to: ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR116
    0.01467455 French_Occitanie
    0.01651898 French_Auvergne

    But that method is very interesting...

  12. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dewsloth View Post
    Using IA only scaled samples:

    Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR33
    Distance: 1.3617% / 0.01361670
    39.8 BGR_IA
    20.8 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    13.0 VK2020_SWE_Oland_IA
    7.2 DEU_Singen_EIA
    4.2 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
    3.8 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
    3.4 Levant_Beirut_IAIII_Egyptian
    3.4 VK2020_NOR_North_IA
    2.4 PAK_Aligrama_IA
    1.6 EGY_Hellenistic
    0.4 VK2020_DNK_Jutland_IA

    For comparison Mausoleo di Augusto RMPR31 (who is a DF19 and probably a wayward Germanic):

    Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR31
    Distance: 2.4417% / 0.02441658
    26.8 VK2020_DNK_Jutland_IA
    22.6 VK2020_SWE_Oland_IA
    15.6 FIN_Levanluhta_IA_o
    11.0 ITA_Sardinia_IA
    8.6 VK2020_NOR_South_IA
    8.2 BGR_IA
    6.6 Baltic_EST_IA
    0.6 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o

    Edit: Here are 110 and 109:

    Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR110
    Distance: 1.6082% / 0.01608201
    31.4 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
    27.2 FIN_Levanluhta_IA_o
    15.2 Levant_Ashkelon_IA1
    11.8 ITA_Sardinia_IA
    10.2 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
    3.4 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
    0.8 MNG_EIA_8


    Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR109
    Distance: 1.6212% / 0.01621172
    34.6 ITA_Sardinia_IA
    26.0 BGR_IA
    20.6 VK2020_DNK_Jutland_IA
    13.2 VK2020_SWE_Oland_IA
    2.4 VK2020_NOR_South_IA
    1.4 CHE_IA
    0.6 HRV_IA
    0.6 KEN_Pastoral_IA
    0.4 EGY_Late_Period
    0.2 CHN_Upper_Yellow_River_IA
    When you throw a bunch of samples and you get Sardinian and the Finland in the mix, it means you are probably are getting back to the steppe migration!

    A model that might be more clean:

    Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR110
    Distance: 2.4244% / 0.02424387
    83.8 ITA_Etruscan
    8.2 DEU_Tollense_BA
    8.0 GRC_Mycenaean

    Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR109
    Distance: 3.0912% / 0.03091221
    88.2 ITA_Etruscan
    6.8 DEU_Tollense_BA
    5.0 GRC_Mycenaean

    Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR33
    Distance: 2.6028% / 0.02602799
    58.8 ITA_Etruscan
    18.0 GRC_Mycenaean
    17.4 DEU_Tollense_BA
    5.8 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2

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