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Thread: The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2,000-year archeogenomic time transe

  1. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    When you throw a bunch of samples and you get Sardinian and the Finland in the mix, it means you are probably are getting back to the steppe migration!

    A model that might be more clean:

    Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR110
    Distance: 2.4244% / 0.02424387
    83.8 ITA_Etruscan
    8.2 DEU_Tollense_BA
    8.0 GRC_Mycenaean

    Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR109
    Distance: 3.0912% / 0.03091221
    88.2 ITA_Etruscan
    6.8 DEU_Tollense_BA
    5.0 GRC_Mycenaean

    Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR33
    Distance: 2.6028% / 0.02602799
    58.8 ITA_Etruscan
    18.0 GRC_Mycenaean
    17.4 DEU_Tollense_BA
    5.8 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
    What happens with RMPR116?
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

  2. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dewsloth View Post
    What happens with RMPR116?
    Target: ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR116
    Distance: 1.9375% / 0.01937497
    34.4 Iberia_East_IA
    27.2 FRA_Grand_Est_IA2
    23.4 FRA_Grand_Est_IA1
    12.0 DEU_MA_Alemanic_Lombardian
    3.0 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
    0.0 GRC_Mycenaean
    0.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    0.0 ITA_Etruscan
    0.0 ITA_Sardinia_C

    I think he is half Gaul half Iberian or something like that.

    edit:

    Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR33
    Distance: 2.6431% / 0.02643069
    63.2 ITA_Etruscan
    13.0 GRC_Mycenaean
    10.6 FRA_Grand_Est_IA1
    7.8 DEU_MA_Alemanic_Lombardian
    5.4 Levant_Ashkelon_IA2
    0.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

    I think that RMPR33, is the non-IA sample that has more Italic-like admix (outside of modern Northern Italians)
    Last edited by Ariel90; 06-10-2021 at 11:51 PM.

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  4. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    I know iím one of the Ďmanyí being referred too at least when it comes to the Levantine component, even though iíve always stressed itís the Tertiary component in Southern Italians (donít really go into it with Central and Northern Italians) with Greek and Native Italic/Etruscan/Oenotrian/Sicani/Elymnian being the 2 main components. As more adna comes out weíll hopefully see regional or tribal affiliations, I think its going to be exciting times going forward.
    I also think it's pretty hard to differentiate between greek and levantine, at the moment. As modern greek itself, as per modern italian (n, c, or s), is the consequence of some admixture. What you call levantine and greek, might be just 'hellenic'.
    We'll probably know more about it in the future.
    Deep Ancestry: 63.2% AUT_LBK_N + 36.8% RUS_Vonyuchka_En @ 2.6339%
    Ancient: 89.0% ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity + 11.0% HUN_Avar_Szolad @ 2.4649%

  5. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Adriatic View Post
    I also think it's pretty hard to differentiate between greek and levantine, at the moment. As modern greek itself, as per modern italian (n, c, or s), is the consequence of some admixture. What you call levantine and greek, might be just 'hellenic'.
    We'll probably know more about it in the future.
    There is a distinction between Greek and Levantine, it has to do with Natufian, and its clear both are differentiated genetically, the Greek component in Southern Italians is looking to be 45-60%, the hard to differentiate is more between Anatolian and Greek, and because apart from the Steppe in the ancient Greeks so far.
    My Y Line: J2a-L210>Z489>Z482>Y15222>Y15245

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36>Y156527

    Great Grandparent (Maternal Grandfather's Mother's line) Y: R1b-U152>L2

    Great Grandparent (Maternal Grandmother's Mother's line) Y: I2-P78>A427>S23612

    Other Y lines Confirmed: 3x GG on Maternal side: J2a-S25258>SK1336, 3x GG on Maternal side: J2a-M67, 4x GG on Maternal side: R1b-PF7562, 5x GG on Maternal side: E-V13, 5x GG on Maternal side: R2-L266

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  7. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    There is a distinction between Greek and Levantine, it has to do with Natufian, and its clear both are differentiated genetically, the Greek component in Southern Italians is looking to be 45-60%, the hard to differentiate is more between Anatolian and Greek, and because apart from the Steppe in the ancient Greeks so far.
    But are you saying there has been no admixture between Ancient Greeks and Levantines, and the only time they admixed it was in Southern Italy where they came, met and admixed for the first time? I don't exclude anything but I find it hard to believe and historically speaking not really plausible. While I find more plausible that in Italy, during late republic and early empire, a significant amount of admixed hellenic people, with a strong levantine component, came to Italy.
    Let's not forget that Levant was the most civilized part of the world and Greece first and Rome later 'colonized' those areas and, I guess, this had an influence on the ethnogenesis of both populations.
    Last edited by Northern Adriatic; 06-11-2021 at 01:43 PM.
    Deep Ancestry: 63.2% AUT_LBK_N + 36.8% RUS_Vonyuchka_En @ 2.6339%
    Ancient: 89.0% ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity + 11.0% HUN_Avar_Szolad @ 2.4649%

  8. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Adriatic View Post
    But are you saying there has been no admixture between Ancient Greeks and Levantines, and the only time they admixed it was in Southern Italy where they came, met and admixed for the first time? I don't exclude anything but I find it hard to believe and historically speaking not really plausible. While I find more plausible that in Italy, during late republic and early empire, a significant amount of admixed hellenic people, with a strong levantine component, came to Italy.
    Let's not forget that Levant was the most civilized part of the world and Greece first and Rome later 'colonized' those areas and, I guess, this had an influence on the ethnogenesis of both populations.
    I never said that, look at Antioch and Cyprus as examples where Greek meets Levantine, and there was opportunities older than that, considering Phoenicians and Greeks had colonies near by each other in Southern Italy, Ischia/Pithakoussai had both Phoenicians and Ionic Greeks living there. And there was some minor Phoenician trade stops in Greece such as Samothrace.
    My Y Line: J2a-L210>Z489>Z482>Y15222>Y15245

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36>Y156527

    Great Grandparent (Maternal Grandfather's Mother's line) Y: R1b-U152>L2

    Great Grandparent (Maternal Grandmother's Mother's line) Y: I2-P78>A427>S23612

    Other Y lines Confirmed: 3x GG on Maternal side: J2a-S25258>SK1336, 3x GG on Maternal side: J2a-M67, 4x GG on Maternal side: R1b-PF7562, 5x GG on Maternal side: E-V13, 5x GG on Maternal side: R2-L266

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  10. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    I never said that, look at Antioch and Cyprus as examples where Greek meets Levantine, and there was opportunities older than that, considering Phoenicians and Greeks had colonies near by each other in Southern Italy, Ischia/Pithakoussai had both Phoenicians and Ionic Greeks living there. And there was some minor Phoenician trade stops in Greece such as Samothrace.
    Okay I am just trying to understand better what you are trying to say. Regarding phoenicians I wouldn't overestimate them (they had colonies in southern spain too where levant is 0 or close to 0). I still think that most of the levant which came to Italy were through Hellenic people (greek-levantine admixed) and only a small minority through direct levantine. But of course I may be wrong. Historically makes more sense to me though.
    Deep Ancestry: 63.2% AUT_LBK_N + 36.8% RUS_Vonyuchka_En @ 2.6339%
    Ancient: 89.0% ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity + 11.0% HUN_Avar_Szolad @ 2.4649%

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  12. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Adriatic View Post
    Okay I am just trying to understand better what you are trying to say. Regarding phoenicians I wouldn't overestimate them (they had colonies in southern spain too where levant is 0 or close to 0). I still think that most of the levant which came to Italy were through Hellenic people (greek-levantine admixed) and only a small minority through direct levantine. But of course I may be wrong. Historically makes more sense to me though.
    Here is the thing if your scenario would be correct it would make Southern Italians up to 40-50% Hellenic Levantine (Antioch or Alexandria derived pop like), it honestly makes zero sense, for this to work would have to imagine that Magna Graecia had zero genetic impact.

    It should be seen like this Native+Italic, Greeks come in major Genetic change, Phoenicians minor influence, then Roman era adds an additional 15-20% to the total genetic makeup of which its a mix of Hellenic world.
    Last edited by Principe; 06-11-2021 at 03:03 PM.
    My Y Line: J2a-L210>Z489>Z482>Y15222>Y15245

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36>Y156527

    Great Grandparent (Maternal Grandfather's Mother's line) Y: R1b-U152>L2

    Great Grandparent (Maternal Grandmother's Mother's line) Y: I2-P78>A427>S23612

    Other Y lines Confirmed: 3x GG on Maternal side: J2a-S25258>SK1336, 3x GG on Maternal side: J2a-M67, 4x GG on Maternal side: R1b-PF7562, 5x GG on Maternal side: E-V13, 5x GG on Maternal side: R2-L266

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  14. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    I never said that, look at Antioch and Cyprus as examples where Greek meets Levantine, and there was opportunities older than that, considering Phoenicians and Greeks had colonies near by each other in Southern Italy, Ischia/Pithakoussai had both Phoenicians and Ionic Greeks living there. And there was some minor Phoenician trade stops in Greece such as Samothrace.
    Evidence for Etruscan-Punic Relations by Jean MacIntosh Turfa
    https://www.jstor.org/stable/503012?...o_tab_contents

    The Punic samples from Sardinia are very telling of what was going on in the Tyrrhenian Sea. We have Sardinian sample VIL011 dated to 774-746 cal BC. His is R-L51+S1161+, which has only been found so far in a Terramare Culture sample far too old and far too north to be considered Villanovan or Etruscan. However, while his Y-DNA is likely Italic, he is about 23% MAR_Iberomaurusian and some Levant_PPNB. A second Punic sample is MSR002 which is G2a2a1a, a lineage typical of Neolithic and Iron Age Sardinia but already with Levant_PPNB & Kura-Araxes ancestry. Then we have sample VIL007 which is J1a2a1a2d2b2 which is more of what we would expect from a Punic with Levant ancestors. All three have substantially less Anatolia_Barcin_N than Iron Age Sardinians. That we have an Etruscan with substantial North African ancestry kind of backs some form of movement from the Levant > North Africa > Central Italy even if they may be through intermediate locations (Cyprus, Crete, Greece etc.). It will be interesting to get our hands on those new samples.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 06-12-2021 at 12:33 AM.
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    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  16. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    Here is the thing if your scenario would be correct it would make Southern Italians up to 40-50% Hellenic Levantine (Antioch or Alexandria derived pop like), it honestly makes zero sense, for this to work would have to imagine that Magna Graecia had zero genetic impact.
    [...]
    Honestly I don't understand why you come to the conclusion of the first sentence.

    What I am saying is that most of the levant which came to Italy would've come through the Late Republic/Early Empire due to the conquer of the Hellenic world.
    Who said that the earlier Magna Grecia had 0 impact? Of course it had a significant impact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    It should be seen like this Native+Italic, Greeks come in major Genetic change, Phoenicians minor influence, then Roman era adds an additional 15-20% to the total genetic makeup of which its a mix of Hellenic world.
    This is already a more acceptable theory. Because everything started from here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Principe
    I know iím one of the Ďmanyí being referred too at least when it comes to the Levantine component, even though iíve always stressed itís the Tertiary component in Southern Italians (donít really go into it with Central and Northern Italians) with Greek and Native Italic/Etruscan/Oenotrian/Sicani/Elymnian being the 2 main components. As more adna comes out weíll hopefully see regional or tribal affiliations, I think its going to be exciting times going forward."
    From your original post I understood that you were saying that there are 3 separate groups participating at the ethnogenesis of Southern Italians: 1. Ancient Italians, 2. Greeks with no levant admixture, 3. Levantine with no hellenic admixture.
    I've answered that it would be difficult to understand what came as direct levantine and what came as intermediated through hellenic admixed populations during late republic/early empire times and eventually I think we agreed on the fact that probably there has been an Hellenic-world input (you say 15-20%, I have no data to estimate a number).

    But anyway.. I guess we're going OT and for the time being there is no way to confirm or dismiss any theory. I just think your second version is more likely than the first one (still think phoenicians are overlooked in terms of genetic impact on the current modern populations, as they have 0 impact on modern spanish population, for example).
    Deep Ancestry: 63.2% AUT_LBK_N + 36.8% RUS_Vonyuchka_En @ 2.6339%
    Ancient: 89.0% ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity + 11.0% HUN_Avar_Szolad @ 2.4649%

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