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Thread: The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2,000-year archeogenomic time transe

  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariel90 View Post
    Another less known fact, the only sample from the 2019 paper that was dated 400-200 BCE, so Republican era, was R437b

    Distance to: ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o:RMPR437b
    0.03028814 Italian_Basilicata
    0.03094613 Italian_Campania
    0.03155609 Italian_Apulia
    0.03228704 Greek_Laconia
    0.03274259 Italian_Lazio
    0.03286751 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.03375358 Greek_Izmir


    This is another gigantic fact that we are missing, all the other "Latin" samples are before 600BCE, that is before the foundation of the Republic (509 BCE), when Rome was a rural small town in the middle of nowhere. That Preneste sample could have been a Greek individual or a local Latin individual, we don't know. It's hard to downplay how much Romans borrowed from their Magna Graecia neighbours. And we don't know the extent of the demographic impact of that influence. Also we don't know how Rome was during the punic-wars era, for example. My guess is that it wasn't 100% Italic. We already have evidence of that.
    Good point, though R435 (the other Praenesti sample) is dated 600-200 BCE so it's most likely Republic era, as well. Still, that means for the pre-Imperial era we really only have two likely Republic era samples, one of which is East Med-like. Everybody else in the "Iron Age/Republic era" set is dated to the Roman Kingdom era or earlier, with the lowest bound for the Ardea samples (800-500 BCE) just barely dipping into the Republic era. Speaking of Ardea, the R850 outlier proves that an East Med profile must have existed before the Hellenistic era. That's an interesting fact all by itself, and I have to wonder if Greece and/or Anatolia were crawling with guys like this during the Iron Age/classical period.
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  3. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Good point, though R435 (the other Praenesti sample) is dated 600-200 BCE so it's most likely Republic era, as well. Still, that means for the pre-Imperial era we really only have two likely Republic era samples, one of which is East Med-like. Everybody else in the "Iron Age/Republic era" set is dated to the Roman Kingdom era or earlier, with the lowest bound for the Ardea samples (800-500 BCE) just barely dipping into the Republic era. Speaking of Ardea, the R850 outlier proves that an East Med profile must have existed before the Hellenistic era. That's an interesting fact all by itself, and I have to wonder if Greece and/or Anatolia were crawling with guys like this during the Iron Age/classical period.
    Maybe early as the LBA collapse... Never know. What's the earliest date on Med shifted Sicilians?

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  5. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rohlfsen View Post
    Maybe early as the LBA collapse... Never know. What's the earliest date on Med shifted Sicilians?
    We don't have any samples from the Bronze age to now.

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  7. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rohlfsen View Post
    Maybe early as the LBA collapse... Never know. What's the earliest date on Med shifted Sicilians?
    There are some Iran/CHG-like shifts in some of the BA Sicily samples (perhaps indicative of gene flow from Bronze Age Aegeans), but they still plot pretty strongly with Neolithic farmers from the previous era. Steppe ancestry shows up in BA Sicily, too, of course. I know of no ancient samples from Sicily after that, nor from mainland Southern Italy either. It's a big black hole. I'm also interested in the idea that the BA collapse might have already had an East Med-shifting impact in this area but until we get some IA samples from the region all we can do is guess.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Good point, though R435 (the other Praenesti sample) is dated 600-200 BCE so it's most likely Republic era, as well. Still, that means for the pre-Imperial era we really only have two likely Republic era samples, one of which is East Med-like. Everybody else in the "Iron Age/Republic era" set is dated to the Roman Kingdom era or earlier, with the lowest bound for the Ardea samples (800-500 BCE) just barely dipping into the Republic era. Speaking of Ardea, the R850 outlier proves that an East Med profile must have existed before the Hellenistic era. That's an interesting fact all by itself, and I have to wonder if Greece and/or Anatolia were crawling with guys like this during the Iron Age/classical period.
    You are right! I had them under the same label... It's interesting because the other Prenestini is not that close to other Italic_IA samples, but he's northern shifted.

    Target: ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA:RMPR435b
    Distance: 2.4684% / 0.02468371
    56.6 FRA_Grand_Est_IA1
    43.4 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA

    Distance to: ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA:RMPR435b
    0.04275544 FRA_Grand_Est_IA1
    0.05165100 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA:RMPR1016

    (He's closer to Fra_IA than to the Latini_IA sample)

    I wonder if he's a Cisalpine Gaul or at least has some Northern ancestry. Rome was ravaged by Brennus and the Senones in 387 BCE. Btw he's also H11a and R-P312.

    It's also interesting that out of the 4 samples that are closer to the Republican era 2 are big outliers, 1 is tipical Italic, and the other one look half Gaul\half Italic.

    Edit: Etruscans IMO could have maintained their genetic profile for longer since they were further away from the Greek world, but it's going to be interesting to see if this Etruscan paper has some samples from Southern Italy during this period...
    Last edited by Ariel90; 06-13-2021 at 08:59 PM.

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  11. #266
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    There are taking their sweet time releasing this to the public.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
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    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  13. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    There are taking their sweet time releasing this to the public.
    Did anyone have any contact with the authors about an estimated publication date?

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    Quote Originally Posted by manesh View Post
    Did anyone have any contact with the authors about an estimated publication date?
    Besides the lab (Max Planck), I don't know that we have the name of the lead author, right?
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Besides the lab (Max Planck), I don't know that we have the name of the lead author, right?
    Can someone please reach to Johannes Krause?

    And also on this wikipedia page I found the following description of his book:

    In his book, A Short History of Humanity, published in the English world in 2021, German geneticist Johannes Krause, co-director of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Jena, concludes that all the evidence tells us that the Etruscan language arrived in Europe with the Neolithic revolution.
    Anyone read this book?

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    Quote Originally Posted by manesh View Post
    Can someone please reach to Johannes Krause?

    And also on this wikipedia page I found the following description of his book:



    Anyone read this book?
    If true ( and it seems the genetic evidence is going in this direction) it will be huge..
    As I said some weeks ago, we will have a whole bunch of words and verbs related to a full fledged EEF language.
    Last edited by etrusco; 06-18-2021 at 05:55 PM.

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