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Thread: The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2,000-year archeogenomic time transe

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    reads alot like antonio et al reloaded

    something new is the quantification of ~50% admixture with eastern Mediterranean ancestry guess that means the other ~50% could be Italic/Etruscan_IA; an info that was not given in the stanford paper as they mashed the whole IR samples into their qpAdm analysis and not each clusters

    also smth. to look forward to is the abrupt part of the population-wide shift
    seems they have a certain timeperiod figured out
    Did not the reforming Roman statesman Tiberius Gracchus complain about the lack of free inhabitants (eligible for service in the legions) as he travelled along the Etruscan coast in the later 2nd century BCE?

    The immigration of free and unfree East Mediterranean people must have been enormous under the Late Republic and Empire.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    I guess they mean that the most likely place where recent anatolian should have been present ( in regard to the supposed anatolian origins). Obviously I'm referring to costal cities and locations . Near eastern ancestry and north african cannot be the source of etruscan. In the former it would have been a phoenician/semitic language and the latter has never been a candidate for etruscan language and civilization. To discard also the idea proposed by some on AG that R1bU152 were biliangual speakers (italic and etruscan). Italy in copper age and bronze age was an hub in many aspects ( metallurgy). That a local copper age populations with a minimal amount of input from the east , also in terms of mercenaries for example could have triggered the birth of etruscan civilization does not seem implausible to me. Expecially with the back of ancient dna whose logic must be followed to the end.
    We have the case in Iberia where ancient R-DF27 shows up places where both Basque and IE languages like Lusitanian are later attested so, while I don't know that it is very likely that U152 was both Italic and Etruscan speaking in the Italian peninsula, I don't know that we can rule it out. This could also get hidden if we have some elites (haplogroup T found in the only Etruscan male we have to date) ruling over U152 Umbrians, Latins, etc.

    We know that in the land of the later non-IE speaking alpine Rhaetians, the Polada Culture EBA samples surprisingly remained G2a (and not U152) while north of the Alps the Bell Beaker derived samples were U152. The non-IE speaking Nuragic Culture in Sardinia remained very EEF (I2, G2, R-V88) with a few J2bs sprinkled. J2bs weren't in Marcus et al.'s pre-Nuragic Sardinian samples, but that may be due to lack of enough samples.

    We will likely need a lot more samples to figure things out.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 06-04-2021 at 04:25 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2,000-year archeogenomic time transect

    The origin, development and legacy of the enigmatic Etruscan civilization from the central region of the Italian peninsula known as Etruria has been the subject of scholarly debate for centuries. Here we report a genomic time transect of 82 individuals spanning almost two millennia (800 BCE – 1,000 CE) across Etruria and southern Italy. During the Iron Age, we detect a component of Indo-European-associated steppe ancestry and the lack of recent Anatolian admixture among the putative non-Indo-European-speaking Etruscans. Despite comprising diverse individuals of central European, northern African and Near Eastern ancestry, the local gene pool is largely maintained across the first millennium BCE. This continuity drastically changes during the Roman Imperial period where we report an abrupt population-wide shift to ~50% admixture with eastern Mediterranean ancestry. Finally, we identify northern European components appearing in central Italy during the Early Middle Ages, which thus formed the genetic landscape of present-day Italian populations.

    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB42866

    This was posted elsewhere but too important to not have it's own thread.

    Etrusco commented elsewhere that "It seems for the first time we have a window into a likely purely EEF language, given the fact that etruscans were likely a remnanat of an italian copper age populations."

    However, I think it premature to not take into account the "diverse individuals of central European, northern African and Near Eastern Ancestry" they found across the first millennium BCE. As we know, the Etruscans are sometimes seen as an elite that displaced the Umbrians. While some may balk at that, it is the history that was written (granted, by the Romans) and the IE speaking Romans themselves were ruled by non-IE speaking Etruscans.
    Excellent vindication of the fact that political formations ruling over ancient large-scale societies (States, Empires, trade zones etc) could have substantial genetic impact, and that the Germanic influx was not without influence.... The idea that ~25% influx from E Med populations could happen in "Iberia outside the Basque areas" (Olalde 2019) was never really consistent with the idea that the Imperial-era "Romans" "came, saw, left no trace" genetically in Italy itself (as quoted from Razib's substack)...

    This may constitute weird vindication, after a century, of some of the interesting (and very controversial) works of classical philologists from the US in the early 20th C, who tried estimating the population impact of slaves, freedmen, and migrants from the East on the Roman Empire overall using the % Greek names on Imperial tombstones, e.g. here and here.

    Quick request: is anyone able to perform a G25 analysis where a 50% Imperial Roman + 50% Italy Iron Age genome is used as one source, and Langobards are used as the other, to fit modern Tuscans? This should bracket the extent of Germanic impact (before we get the rest of the genomes)... I've a pet theory that in areas where an invading elite was subsequently "decapitated" by other elites, the Y-chromosomal contribution may at best equal or even be lower than the autosomal one in some cases (i.e. Y chroms get replaced easily from another episode of political domination from another direction, but autosomal admixture remains).
    Last edited by Ryukendo; 06-04-2021 at 04:42 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Hopefully the lack of northern Italian samples doesn't negatively impact the conclusions of the paper. We know that the alpine Rhaetian's language may have been related to that of the Etruscans.
    But Rhaetian language only began 600BC ( first known/found sample ) so its really late.............could have influences from all of its trading neighbors ........southern etruscans, South east venetic, western Euganei, Eastern Illyrian/celtic mix , northern celtic ........I would not count on trade as a form of migration


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-Y33791 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

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    NCBI usually shows the data before ENA but obviously there nothing more than the abstract at the moment.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/bioproj...erm=prjeb42866

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  11. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by teepean47 View Post
    NCBI usually shows the data before ENA but obviously there nothing more than the abstract at the moment.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/bioproj...erm=prjeb42866
    teepean , when there's many runs which run to choose , I always don't know which run to choose..also can you send me a PM would like to ask you something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    But Rhaetian language only began 600BC ( first known/found sample ) so its really late.............could have influences from all of its trading neighbors ........southern etruscans, South east venetic, western Euganei, Eastern Illyrian/celtic mix , northern celtic ........I would not count on trade as a form of migration
    Are those the oldest examples of writing in the area? If it is it would be hard to speculate what was spoken beforehand. I'd imagine if the written examples were from the southern Etruscans then it wouldn't be classified as a separate language but Etruscan proper? Also, the Romans speak of Rhaetian tribes, so are you saying that the traders were the only ones writing and the non-traders were the Rhaetian tribes spoke a different language?
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Excellent vindication of the fact that political formations ruling over ancient large-scale societies (States, Empires, trade zones etc) could have substantial genetic impact, and that the Germanic influx was not without influence.... The idea that ~25% influx from E Med populations could happen in "Iberia outside the Basque areas" (Olalde 2019) was never really consistent with the idea that the Imperial-era "Romans" "came, saw, left no trace" genetically in Italy itself (as quoted from Razib's substack)...

    This may constitute weird vindication, after a century, of some of the interesting (and very controversial) works of classical philologists from the US in the early 20th C, who tried estimating the population impact of slaves, freedmen, and migrants from the East on the Roman Empire overall using the % Greek names on Imperial tombstones, e.g. here and here.

    Quick request: is anyone able to perform a G25 analysis where a 50% Imperial Roman + 50% Italy Iron Age genome is used as one source, and Langobards are used as the other, to fit modern Tuscans? This should bracket the extent of Germanic impact (before we get the rest of the genomes)... I've a pet theory that in areas where an invading elite was subsequently "decapitated" by other elites, the Y-chromosomal contribution may at best equal or even be lower than the autosomal one in some cases (i.e. Y chroms get replaced easily from another episode of political domination from another direction, but autosomal admixture remains).
    This is all very fitting/satisfying for me. Check out the three personal Y-chromosome lines in my Italian tree (no luck convincing others to test):

    My paternal line is R-L2 > FGC10543 (Italic)
    My maternal grandfather: J1 (Semitic)
    My paternal>maternal>paternal great (x3) grandfather: R-U106 (Germanic)
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 06-04-2021 at 06:38 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  17. #29
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    No 'recent Anatolian ancestry' in the context of Iron Age doesn't mean no post-Neolithic Anatolian ancestry at all. It was all over Italy at least in some quantity during the Bronze Age.

    Italy_MBA (the samples from the ossicles paper, North-Central Italy)
    "Sicily_EBA1" 50.05
    "Italy_BellBeaker" 49.4
    "South_Africa_2000BP.SG" 0.55
    "distance%=0.2811 / distance=0.002811"
    Columns:,Anatolia_Barcin_N,Levant_N,Iran_GanjDareh _N,CHG.SG,Taforalt,Vanuatu_ancient,PrimorskyKrai_B oisman_MN,Peru_Laramate_900BP,Karelia_HG,IronGates _Meso1,Yamnaya_Samara,Ust_Ishim.DG

    Sicily_EBA1 comes out 30% Peloponnese_N, which in turn comes out 40% copper age Anatolian.
    Even though it reaches North-Italy_MBA at a small quantity, still those are huge effects step-wise.
    Collection of 14,000 d-stats: Hidden Content Part 2: Hidden Content Part 3: Hidden Content PM me for d-stats, qpadm, qpgraph, or f3-outgroup nmonte models.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Are those the oldest examples of writing in the area? If it is it would be hard to speculate what was spoken beforehand. I'd imagine if the written examples were from the southern Etruscans then it wouldn't be classified as a separate language but Etruscan proper? Also, the Romans speak of Rhaetian tribes, so are you saying that the traders were the only ones writing and the non-traders were the Rhaetian tribes spoke a different language?
    The term "Raetic" refers to a few hundred inscriptions found mainly in the Trentino and in South and North Tyrol, as well as sporadically in the Veneto, in Graubünden, and in Slovenia. These inscriptions, written with North Italic alphabets, are roughly dated between the 6th and the 1st centuries BC, and are the only documents of the Raetic language, a non-Indo-European language of the Alpine region.

    The Raetic language as documented in inscriptions written in the alphabets of Sanzeno (Bolzano) and Magrè has turned out to be much more homogenous than expected (or hoped) (see Modern research on the Raeti and Raetic). Despite the fact that its uniformity, though long suspected, has been demonstrated only in the 1990ies, linguistic criteria today make for a better basis for the definition of the Raetic corpus than epigraphic parameters.

    In 1918, the archaeologist Giuseppe Pellegrini published the considerable find of Magrè. He defined an "alphabet of Magrè", distinct from Pauli's Bozen alphabet and with similarities to the Venetic alphabets, documented on the 21 pieces of antler, and also considered the southern inscriptions VR-3, which Pauli hadn't been able to place, and PA-1 to belong in this group. He did, however, perceive the similarity of the linguistic forms recorded in the Magrè and Bozen alphabets, and tentatively suggested a difference between a northern and a southern Raetic population, where the former had mixed with the Gauls, whereas the latter, termed "Euganei", was heavily influenced by (but not necessarily related to) the Etruscans.

    Only in 1933 were the North Italic inscriptions again published together, in the copious edition of British philologist Robert Seymour Conway and his student Joshua Whatmough, The Pre-Italic Dialects of Italy (PID). Conway, who had been working on this project since 1907, limited himself to editing volume I, which contains the Venetic inscriptions, so that the other inscription groups (vol. II)


    After 1945, excavations conducted in Südtirol and the Trentino brought important new finds to light. The bronzes of Sanzeno (inscriptions SZ-1 to SZ-15), found in 1947, shifted the epicentre of Pauli's Bozen alphabet to the west of the Adige

    In recent years, the Raetic corpus was augmented by a considerable number of linguistically relevant finds, mainly from the northern and southern parts of the Raetic area. Marinetti published more inscriptions from the area of Verona (Montorio and San Giorgio di Valpolicella) in 2003 and 2004 and from Bostel in 2011; the inscription on the Situla in Providence was conclusively shown to be Raetic by Diether Schürr in 2003. From the Inntal come IT-5 on a bronze tablet, published in detail in De Simone & Marchesini 2013, the shorter IT-7 and IT-8 (TIR [publication date 2014] and Salomon 2018), and two inscribed miniature shields (IT-9, FP-1) published in Kirchmayr & Schumacher 2019. Raetic petrographs were found by ANISA – Association for rock art and settlement in the Alps in Achenkirch in Nordtirol (published in TIR [2014]) and in the Ammergau in Bayern (published in Schumacher 2016). New inscriptions from the Central Raetic area come from the Val di Non (NO-15, NO-16, NO-17 and SZ-87 published by Simona Marchesini in 2014; NO-19 and SZ-94 published in TIR [2015]). Lunz & Morandi 2003 published a helmet hoard from the Bozen area (BZ-26–BZ-29); an unusual inscription on a ceramic vessel from Stufels was published in Tecchiati et al. 2011: 40.

    In 2009/2010, Mancini put forward a new edition entitled Le iscrizioni retiche (LIR), in which he introduced a new sigla system which is different from, but deceptively similar to Schumacher's. Mancini ignored new material after 2000, but included a number of old museum finds of "sigle" which had not made it into IR. (They are not included in TIR; see Raetica.) Mancini supplies extensive reference lists and previous readings, but the photographs and drawings are the same as in IR. Another edition – this one complete – was published by Marchesini in 2015 (MLR). Marchesini reverts to a linear numbering of documents and attempts a dating of the inscriptions on the basis of letter forms with the help of serialisation software. The edition includes new inscriptions from Bostel (AS-17, AS-18) and Sanzeno (SZ-96, SZ-97, SZ-98).

    The TIR project was conceived in 2011 as a follow-up project to Lexicon Leponticum. The database, created mainly between 2013 and 2016, contains all inscriptions published in print; inscriptions which were first published in TIR are collected in Salomon 2018. All the readings and data on objects and inscriptions (except for documents which are currently untraceable) are based on first-hand examinations; new drawings and, where allowed, photos are provided. As of 2020, the edition is continuously updated and contains all new inscription finds and pertinent publications. See Project:About for a list of print publications which resulted from the project.

    Despite the fact that at least three of the find places of Raetic inscriptions were sanctuaries (Magrè, Montesei di Serso, Sanzeno), we do not know the names of the deities. Unlike, for example, in Venetic, where the name of the adressee / recipient of the votive gift is regularly mentioned in the inscriptions, the theonym is not part of the Raetic dedication formulae.

    .................................................. ...............................................

    A full Raetic name consists of two parts: an individual name and a patronym (or possibly also a metronym). The latter is derived from an individual name by suffixation of -nu or -na; on the questions of the relation to Etruscan -na and whether the two variants reflect gender, see the morpheme pages. We have reason to believe that the Raetic patronymic system was productive at the time of it's documentation (Rix 1998: 18 f.) – a number of names are attested both as individual names and as base of a patronym, but most important is the testimony of ST-1, ST-2 and ST-3 with the names of three related men. The following names are attested as both individual name and patronym:

    kastrie (kaszrinu)
    piθam(n)e (piθamnu)
    remi (remina)
    visteχa (visteχanu)

    Even under the assumption that a considerable number of the names attested in the Raetic corpus are foreign, the lack of parallels with Etruscan in the sphere of onomastics is surprising.


    .................................................. .................................................. .................
    So far, only one place name can be identified in the Raetic inscriptions, owing to the combination with the noun sφura 'community'. The community Entu*.



    To conclude ..........it has some similar things with Etruscan but zero links in personnal names .............an indication that there was trade ( linguistic association ) but not migrational ( patronym names association )



    like today ...........the trading language is English, yet not everyone is English in Ancestry


    Last edited by vettor; 06-04-2021 at 07:39 PM.


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-Y33791 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

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