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Thread: The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2,000-year archeogenomic time transe

  1. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    In this regard I'm interested to learn and understand more about the likely connection of migration paths of Hallstatt/Celtic/Gaulish U152 and Italics/Latins/etc. U152: what I have no good clue yet is if there was an early U152 split maybe Northeast of the Alps and while most moved a little to the West to Hallstatt another branch went to the Italian peninsula either by passing east and south of the Alps or trough the Alps. Was this discussed or maybe published?
    Since we have U152 continuity in places like the Czech Republic Bell Beaker through Hallstatt, it is likely to have been a staple of those regions for a long time. Certainly U152 was in southern Germany, Switzerland and SE France since the Bell Beaker period as well. While U152 has also turned up in a couple of Middle Bronze Age samples from NE Italy, it is not difficult to project it's presence there in the Early Bronze Age as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    So Richard for G you also think it did not survive pre-Iron-Age outside of Italy/Alps, Sardinia and the Balkans?
    We have a couple of G2 Bell Beaker samples from Hungary and Bavaria. In Hungary there is one from the Middle Bronze Age as well, so it looks like it survived in Central Europe in small numbers. I don't think there has ever been a samples from Steppe Bell Beaker in Western Europe.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  3. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Since we have U152 continuity in places like the Czech Republic Bell Beaker through Hallstatt, it is likely to have been a staple of those regions for a long time. Certainly U152 was in southern Germany, Switzerland and SE France since the Bell Beaker period as well. While U152 has also turned up in a couple of Middle Bronze Age samples from NE Italy, it is not difficult to project it's presence there in the Early Bronze Age as well.
    Am I correct in that all these U152 are L2? Does this say anything yet about the other branches of U152?
    R-U152>Z56>Z46>Z48>Z44>BY66065
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    Ancestry DNA 2020; England NW Europe 55%, Scotland 19%, Ireland 10%, Sweden 8%, Norway 6%, Wales 2%
    Ancestry DNA 2019; England, Wales, NW Europe 86%, Norway 7%, Sweden 7%
    Ancestry DNA 2018; England, Wales, NW Europe 91%, Norway 9%
    Original Ancestry DNA; Europe West 54%, Great Britain 23%, Wales/Scotland/Ireland 13%; Scandinavia 7%; Iberian Peninsula 2%
    FTDNA; British Isles 81%, West and Central Europe 18%
    Paper Trail; England 87.5%, Wales 12.5%

  4. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by G Livesey View Post
    Am I correct in that all these U152 are L2? Does this say anything yet about the other branches of U152?
    Yes, but there is a caveat - there are some P312+L2- samples that were not tested for U152 that might be different subclades of U152. One such example is from Via Guidorossi, Parma, Emilia Romagna.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  6. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chnodomar View Post
    I am not sure if the “calculator effect” has something to do with that (it has been ages since I have heard that term anyway).

    One possibility for inflated Germanic ancestry in models involving northern Italians could be, that both the Italic and Greek samples are too old to be directly relevant here. Much could have changed till northern Italians formed.
    We also entirely lack (cisalpine) Celtic samples, an ancestry component that should not be underestimated.

    What happens if you include the Czech Hallstatt sample DA111, Swiss IA sample SX18, DEU_Roman_FN2 or French IA samples?
    Code:
    Italic,0.127608556,0.150298556,0.035658889,-0.012776444,0.043119111,-0.006383444,0.001357778,0.000769222,0.020793333,0. 038006222,0.00083,0.012622111,-0.019375556,-0.007401111,-0.001085667,-0.001193222,0.003071222,0.003209444,0.007542,-0.003432222,-0.000138667,0.005028444,-0.002903222,-0.002155556,-0.000146444
    Germanic:DEU_MA,0.1223596,0.1303939,0.061169,0.048773,0.039792,0.0199408,0.010975,0.0052151,0.0013295,-0.0024966,-0.003735,0.001109,-0.0091576,-0.0038398,0.0161643,-0.0008352,-0.0133511,0.0032684,0.0041354,0.0040271,0.0060019,0.0037342,-0.0007273,0.011146,-0.0004429
    Greek:ITA_Collegno_MA_o1,0.1069937,0.1486057,-0.0248897,-0.0551253,0.0057443,-0.016083,-0.0018017,-0.003769,0.0008863,0.0154293,0.007091,0.0059443,-0.008325,0.000642,-0.0068313,-0.0010607,0.008388,-0.001098,0.004483,0.0007087,-0.001539,0.002267,0.0031223,0.0018077,0.0015967
    Gaul/Celt:FRA_Grand_Est_IA1,0.1282407,0.146913,0.0529223,0.026486,0.0404177,0.0066937,-0.0080687,0.003615,0.0145213,0.0109343,0.002977,0.016885,-0.014866,-0.0101843,0.0194533,0.0063197,0.0005217,0.006081,0.0025977,0.004377,-0.002953,-0.0021847,-0.009285,-0.0024903,-0.003153
    Gaul/Celt:FRA_Grand_Est_IA2,0.1271973,0.1457285,0.050534,0.0399712,0.0363142,0.01262,0.0012338,0.005942,0.0035282,0.0127568,-0.0005275,-0.0019857,-0.00944,-0.0048855,0.0118755,0.0072262,-0.0087685,0.0012035,0.0089558,-0.00025,-0.005147,0.0080682,0.003112,-0.0122605,0.002904
    Gaul/Celt:FRA_Hauts_De_France_IA2,0.12862,0.149283,0.053174,0.031654,0.050163,0.014781,0.001645,-0.004615,0.01268,0.01057,-0.008444,0.009142,-0.018583,-0.007432,0.019137,-0.003315,-0.014081,0.014316,0.009176,0.002001,0.001622,-0.000866,0.002465,0.000964,0.000718
    Gaul/Celt:CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany,0.12862,0.1376045,0.0705215,0.034238,0.0481625,0.004044,0.0019975,0.001385,0.018509,0.019955,-0.012017,-0.0052455,-0.00944,0.0006195,0.0095685,-0.0013255,-0.005998,0.001774,0.0048395,0.0080665,0.001061,0.0019785,-0.0006165,-0.005422,-0.0034725


    Target: Italian_Umbria
    Distance: 1.1487% / 0.01148731 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    52.8 Greek
    35.0 Italic
    6.2 Gaul/Celt
    6.0 Germanic
    Target: Italian_Lazio
    Distance: 1.5184% / 0.01518374 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    55.8 Greek
    35.4 Italic
    8.8 Gaul/Celt
    Target: Italian_Tuscany
    Distance: 0.8196% / 0.00819569 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    42.6 Greek
    42.4 Italic
    12.2 Germanic
    2.8 Gaul/Celt
    Target: Italian_Calabria
    Distance: 1.5542% / 0.01554201 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    82.8 Greek
    14.4 Italic
    2.8 Gaul/Celt
    Target: Italian_Bergamo
    Distance: 1.2246% / 0.01224619 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    66.0 Italic
    18.0 Greek
    16.0 Germanic
    Target: Italian_Lombardy
    Distance: 1.5623% / 0.01562327 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    59.8 Italic
    22.4 Greek
    9.8 Germanic
    8.0 Gaul/Celt
    Target: Italian_Aosta_Valley
    Distance: 1.5683% / 0.01568311 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    48.4 Italic
    27.0 Germanic
    13.8 Gaul/Celt
    10.8 Greek
    Hidden Content

    Target: Nino_scaled
    Distance: 3.1640% / 0.03163963 | R3P
    64.4 __Germanic
    26.4 __IllyricRoman
    9.2 __Finnic

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  8. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    Indeed I could be wrong but I don't think any J2a clades spread into Europe from the Steppe pre-Iron Age.
    Why not? From the diversity and age I see plenty of possibility in the last 5000 years (at least as minority lineages or even now died out lineages). Also the case of the expansion of J2b-L283 to Europe trough a route North of Black Sea seems not closed to me.
    There is at least one J2a subclade over 3000 years old with modern high diversity in Central Asia like Kazakhstan > North of Caspian/Black-Sea and also a trail of modern samples in Europe North of the Balkans all to France/England and Iberia and if I remember correctly no samples south of this axis. So a possible connection to Scythians with origins in Inner Asia or in the Srubna culture.
    Should by under Z6064 but I would need to look into my pre-2017 studies and check against the surely much better current high-res sample situation.
    EDIT: had a quick look and it is not https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y16842/ (so far completely Atlantic/Nordic) with modern distribution and TMRCA estimate of 2800 ybp also intriguing.
    Last edited by ChrisR; 06-26-2021 at 11:47 AM.
    Particularly interested in: DNA/Admixture from Historical Tyrol, Central Alps and related/connected populations; Y-DNA J2a-M67-L210, J2a-PF5197-PF5169, R1a-M17, R1b-U106-Z372; mtDNA J1b1b, J1c1d2-A11884G, U5a2b2-G10685A, U5b1b1-b-T16192C! Projects: Hidden Content , Hidden Content , J2a-PF5197, ISOGG Wiki, GenWiki (german)

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  10. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    Why not? From the diversity and age I see plenty of possibility in the last 5000 years (at least as minority lineages or even now died out lineages). Also the case of the expansion of J2b-L283 to Europe trough a route North of Black Sea seems not closed to me.
    There is at least one J2a subclade over 3000 years old with modern high diversity in Central Asia like Kazakhstan > North of Caspian/Black-Sea and also a trail of modern samples in Europe North of the Balkans all to France/England and Iberia and if I remember correctly no samples south of this axis. So a possible connection to Scythians with origins in Inner Asia or in the Srubna culture.
    Should by under Z6064 but I would need to look into my pre-2017 studies and check against the surely much better current high-res sample situation.
    EDIT: had a quick look and it is not https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y16842/ (so far completely Atlantic/Nordic) with modern distribution and TMRCA estimate of 2800 ybp also intriguing.
    The two Early Neolithic samples from Ripa Biance in Central Italy, and dated to 5324-5223 BC and 5345-5221 BC were already J2a. We can't consider them dead-ends because we have two Copper Age J2a+ samples from Grotta La Sassa, also from Central Italy and dated 2840–2575 BC and 2837–2498 BC. Needless to say, none of those samples have any EHG steppe ancestry. Even if one proposes a "got swept up with R1b/R1a" scenario, it is highly unlikely at this point given the hundreds of Bell Beaker, Corded Ware and Yamnaya samples we know of, none of which have J2a. And again, those samples from Italy make the need for a steppe sweep unnecessary. If J2a survived on the steppe, it must've stayed there during the Yamnaya/Corded Ware/Bell Beaker expansions into Central and Western Europe.

    With so many ancient DNA samples, the value of modern day diversity is almost zero IMO.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  12. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    The two Early Neolithic samples from Ripa Biance in Central Italy, and dated to 5324-5223 BC and 5345-5221 BC were already J2a. We can't consider them dead-ends because we have two Copper Age J2a+ samples from Grotta La Sassa, also from Central Italy and dated 2840–2575 BC and 2837–2498 BC. Needless to say, none of those samples have any EHG steppe ancestry. Even if one proposes a "got swept up with R1b/R1a" scenario, it is highly unlikely at this point given the hundreds of Bell Beaker, Corded Ware and Yamnaya samples we know of, none of which have J2a. And again, those samples from Italy make the need for a steppe sweep unnecessary. If J2a survived on the steppe, it must've stayed there during the Yamnaya/Corded Ware/Bell Beaker expansions into Central and Western Europe.

    With so many ancient DNA samples, the value of modern day diversity is almost zero IMO.
    In that 2021 paper, (Ancient genomes reveal structural shifts after the arrival of Steppe-related ancestry in the Italian Peninsula) I can't find Ripe Bianche o Ripa Bianca with CTRL+F. In the map of the samples, the only ones in central Italy proper are four neolithic samples in the region Marche, on the Adriatic coast, around Ancona. There's no name for the location. Are these four neolithic samples taken from a previous paper?

    The rest of the samples were from northern and southern Italy.

    There's a Ripa Bianca, close to Jesi, in the province of Ancona, in the region Marche, in eastern central Italy. Is that where the four neolithic samples from the map were from?

    From the map, Grotta la Sassa seems down in southern Italy. Do you know the location of that Grotta la Sassa?

    Edit: Ok, La Sassa is in the province of Latina, Latium. But stil can't find mentioned Ripa Bianca in the paper.map.png
    Last edited by patrizio22; 06-26-2021 at 02:45 PM.

  13. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrizio22 View Post
    In that 2021 paper, (Ancient genomes reveal structural shifts after the arrival of Steppe-related ancestry in the Italian Peninsula) I can't find Ripe Bianche o Ripa Bianca with CTRL+F. In the map of the samples, the only ones in central Italy proper are four neolithic samples in the region Marche, on the Adriatic coast, around Ancona. There's no name for the location. Are these four neolithic samples taken from a previous paper?

    The rest of the samples were from northern and southern Italy.

    There's a Ripa Bianca, close to Jesi, in the province of Ancona, in the region Marche, in eastern central Italy. Is that where the four neolithic samples from the map were from?

    From the map, Grotta la Sassa seems down in southern Italy. Do you know the location of that Grotta la Sassa?

    Edit: Ok, La Sassa is in the province of Latina, Latium. But stil can't find mentioned Ripa Bianca in the paper.map.png
    Ripa Bianca samples are from the Rome paper, Antonio et al (2019)
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    Why not? From the diversity and age I see plenty of possibility in the last 5000 years (at least as minority lineages or even now died out lineages). Also the case of the expansion of J2b-L283 to Europe trough a route North of Black Sea seems not closed to me.
    There is at least one J2a subclade over 3000 years old with modern high diversity in Central Asia like Kazakhstan > North of Caspian/Black-Sea and also a trail of modern samples in Europe North of the Balkans all to France/England and Iberia and if I remember correctly no samples south of this axis. So a possible connection to Scythians with origins in Inner Asia or in the Srubna culture.
    Should by under Z6064 but I would need to look into my pre-2017 studies and check against the surely much better current high-res sample situation.
    EDIT: had a quick look and it is not https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y16842/ (so far completely Atlantic/Nordic) with modern distribution and TMRCA estimate of 2800 ybp also intriguing.
    R. Rocca beat me to it but like he said if any J2a clades had much of a presence among any of the pre-Iron Age Steppe populations that expanded into Europe it would have shown up by now among either Corded Ware or Bell Beaker remains...It is possible but very unlikely that any will ever show up I think.

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  17. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chnodomar View Post
    I am not sure if the “calculator effect” has something to do with that (it has been ages since I have heard that term anyway).

    One possibility for inflated Germanic ancestry in models involving northern Italians could be, that both the Italic and Greek samples are too old to be directly relevant here. Much could have changed till northern Italians formed.
    We also entirely lack (cisalpine) Celtic samples, an ancestry component that should not be underestimated.

    What happens if you include the Czech Hallstatt sample DA111, Swiss IA sample SX18, DEU_Roman_FN2 or French IA samples?
    or maybe these people who placed the term Germanic ancestry in models were too lazy to check they where really "continental celts" ..................Germanic origin is only in North Germany and Southern Denmark

    There is already a term for Balkan Celts......maybe there should be a term for celts in southern Germany, central Europe, Northern alps area


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483+ )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-CTS6397 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

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