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Thread: The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2,000-year archeogenomic time transe

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    ... given the hundreds of Bell Beaker, Corded Ware and Yamnaya samples we know of, none of which have J2a. And again, those samples from Italy make the need for a steppe sweep unnecessary. If J2a survived on the steppe, it must've stayed there during the Yamnaya/Corded Ware/Bell Beaker expansions into Central and Western Europe.

    With so many ancient DNA samples, the value of modern day diversity is almost zero IMO.
    The last one I almost agree with in the sense that from 3000 ybp to modern day diversity I consider that situation as increasingly useful. So before 1000 BC assumptions get lost to greater and greater geographic distance uncertainties. Maybe useful to a continental scale until 3000 BC.

    The statement about the "abundance" of current ancient DNA I'm really unsure to agree with before not seeing some statistical analysis comparing ancient DNA results for Europe (or a part of it) from a restricted time span of say 4-8 generations with estimates of population size and geographic distribution overlap. The number of results might make following up for us more difficult almost by the month now, but I do have no indication this is statistically reaching a relevant point or one where we can exclude minor events outside of the now known major cultures and shifts. I concede in the last couple of years I did nor read much more then headlines and some lines regarding most publications. For example to look into the expansion/migration to Hungary and Central Europe of Huns, Avar, Maygars etc. covered by ancient DNA, with then "foreign" Y-Haplogroups like N, Q, C. In Alpine DNA there are a couple of such lineages with clear prehistoric origin in the Asian East.

    To underline my skepticism: I do not see a clear genetic profile for known "smaller" Pre-Roman populations like Rhaetians, Noricum, etc. so to speak maybe from 800 - 200 BC. Given the complex movements and admixture at that time I would expect valleys side by side having substantial or clearly noticeable differences in Y-frequency or even autosomally despite in the same culture.
    So again to come back to Etruscans while I think this is unlikely to be possible but I would like to see squadrons of men (100 and more) from a subregion (ca. 100 km) and in a restricted time frame (under 10 generations of distance) to assume a "pretty complete genetic representation". So relative to the population size then similar levels we now want for modern populations to be representative. I have not calculated this, just a gut writing. ;-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    The last one I almost agree with in the sense that from 3000 ybp to modern day diversity I consider that situation as increasingly useful. So before 1000 BC assumptions get lost to greater and greater geographic distance uncertainties. Maybe useful to a continental scale until 3000 BC.

    The statement about the "abundance" of current ancient DNA I'm really unsure to agree with before not seeing some statistical analysis comparing ancient DNA results for Europe (or a part of it) from a restricted time span of say 4-8 generations with estimates of population size and geographic distribution overlap. The number of results might make following up for us more difficult almost by the month now, but I do have no indication this is statistically reaching a relevant point or one where we can exclude minor events outside of the now known major cultures and shifts. I concede in the last couple of years I did nor read much more then headlines and some lines regarding most publications. For example to look into the expansion/migration to Hungary and Central Europe of Huns, Avar, Maygars etc. covered by ancient DNA, with then "foreign" Y-Haplogroups like N, Q, C. In Alpine DNA there are a couple of such lineages with clear prehistoric origin in the Asian East.

    To underline my skepticism: I do not see a clear genetic profile for known "smaller" Pre-Roman populations like Rhaetians, Noricum, etc. so to speak maybe from 800 - 200 BC. Given the complex movements and admixture at that time I would expect valleys side by side having substantial or clearly noticeable differences in Y-frequency or even autosomally despite in the same culture.
    So again to come back to Etruscans while I think this is unlikely to be possible but I would like to see squadrons of men (100 and more) from a subregion (ca. 100 km) and in a restricted time frame (under 10 generations of distance) to assume a "pretty complete genetic representation". So relative to the population size then similar levels we now want for modern populations to be representative. I have not calculated this, just a gut writing. ;-)
    But you are asking to test every hamlet in Europe to find the "elusive" J2a, when it is right there for all to see from the Neolithic through the Copper Age in the Alps' backyard (Central Italy). And to boot, the steppe data completely refutes finding it in Corded Ware and Bell Beaker. Not sure why you are discarding the four Italian samples I gave. I'll copy-paste them here since you removed it from your reply:

    "The two Early Neolithic samples from Ripa Biance in Central Italy, and dated to 5324-5223 BC and 5345-5221 BC were already J2a. We can't consider them dead-ends because we have two Copper Age J2a+ samples from Grotta La Sassa, also from Central Italy and dated 2840–2575 BC and 2837–2498 BC. Needless to say, none of those samples have any EHG steppe ancestry."
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 06-26-2021 at 06:18 PM.
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    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    But you are asking to test every hamlet in Europe to find the "elusive" J2a, when it is right there for all to see from the Neolithic through the Copper Age in the Alps' backyard (Central Italy). And to boot, the steppe data completely refutes finding it in Corded Ware and Bell Beaker. Not sure why you are discarding the four Italian samples I gave. I'll copy-paste them here since you removed it from your reply:

    "The two Early Neolithic samples from Ripa Biance in Central Italy, and dated to 5324-5223 BC and 5345-5221 BC were already J2a. We can't consider them dead-ends because we have two Copper Age J2a+ samples from Grotta La Sassa, also from Central Italy and dated 2840–2575 BC and 2837–2498 BC. Needless to say, none of those samples have any EHG steppe ancestry."
    By the way, I forgot to mention that Italy is also the only area where CHG (sans EHG) shows up in Western European or Central European Neolithic samples. That's two for two: only place with pre-steppe expansion J2a and only Neolithic samples with CHG. That can't possibly be a coincidence.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
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    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    By the way, I forgot to mention that Italy is also the only area where CHG (sans EHG) shows up in Western European or Central European Neolithic samples. That's two for two: only place with pre-steppe expansion J2a and only Neolithic samples with CHG. That can't possibly be a coincidence.
    Totally correct, but I think the CHG in Italy is kinda different from the one mixed with the EHG IIRC. Obviously they are related but according to mainstream they were separeted for a long time.
    There are posters on genetic forums that even doubt that there is real CHG in the steppe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    But you are asking to test every hamlet in Europe to find the "elusive" J2a, when it is right there for all to see from the Neolithic through the Copper Age in the Alps' backyard (Central Italy). And to boot, the steppe data completely refutes finding it in Corded Ware and Bell Beaker. Not sure why you are discarding the four Italian samples I gave. I'll copy-paste them here since you removed it from your reply:

    "The two Early Neolithic samples from Ripa Biance in Central Italy, and dated to 5324-5223 BC and 5345-5221 BC were already J2a. We can't consider them dead-ends because we have two Copper Age J2a+ samples from Grotta La Sassa, also from Central Italy and dated 2840–2575 BC and 2837–2498 BC. Needless to say, none of those samples have any EHG steppe ancestry."
    I do not care that much if my observations or assumptions for a small amount of European J2a (a tiny fraction by no means representative) origins and migrations turn out to be true: evidence is evidence and until we do not have ancient DNA for those lineages in the relevant timeframe it is impossible to reconstruct and for many lineages it will likely remain impossible.
    In my statements above I said that in general for genetic diversity regarding minor alleles and presence in the ancient times. I'm skeptical we have discovered all modern Y-diversity relevant back to Bronze Age and Neolithic for example in some Western and Central Asian places - looking specifically to J2a here also I notice new J2a samples at YFull creating paragroups with an age of over 5000 years regularly and this only contributes to the old and complex phylogeny. Probably similar in other old Eurasian haplogroups. I'm quite fascinated how results of the last 10 years defy some really simplistic assumptions in the early Y-studies.
    Do not ask me about my dissatisfaction about the low numbers of high-res modern results from the Central Alps.
    And to come again back to topic: What amount of ancient DNA from Villanovan-Etruscan layers and from the Rhaetian world would be necessary to solidify a clear "additional/foreign" shared genetic origin in the late Pre-Roman time against the lack of this component/s in the Villanovan timeframe and before?
    Last edited by ChrisR; 06-27-2021 at 07:39 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    And to come again back to topic: What amount of ancient DNA from Villanovan-Etruscan layers and from the Rhaetian world would be necessary to solidify a clear "additional/foreign" shared genetic origin in the late Pre-Roman time against the lack of this component/s in the Villanovan timeframe and before?
    To answer that without the paper's data, we have discussed these key sentences from the abstract:

    "During the Iron Age, we detect a component of Indo-European-associated steppe ancestry and the lack of recent Anatolian admixture among the putative non-Indo-European-speaking Etruscans. Despite comprising diverse individuals of central European, northern African and Near Eastern ancestry, the local gene pool is largely maintained across the first millennium BCE."

    So I think the answer to your question is subjective. One may argue for continuity of the Etruscan language based on a largely maintained gene pool, but if the outliers they mention are substantial (one in five?), then I don't see how one wouldn't look elsewhere for their origins.

    By the way, their claim of steppe ancestry in Etruscans is more of headline grabber than anything because we know that steppe ancestry was already in Central Italy since at least ~1600 BC. That is well before anything even remotely Villanovan or Etruscan.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 06-27-2021 at 12:44 PM.
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    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    So I think the answer to your question is subjective. One may argue for continuity of the Etruscan language based on a largely maintained gene pool, but if the outliers they mention are substantial (one in five?), then I don't see how one wouldn't look elsewhere for their origins.
    By the way, their claim of steppe ancestry in Etruscans is more of headline grabber than anything because we know that steppe ancestry was already in Central Italy since at least ~1600 BC. That is well before anything even remotely Villanovan or Etruscan.
    I asked because it seems to me a substantial number of Eastern Mediterranean or generally West Asian Y-DNA with European TMRCA just under ~3000 ybp (maybe from LBA Collapse) but likely from before the time the Roman Republic increasingly contributed to population exchange and constant microscale migration (conquering/soldiers, trade, slaves, etc.) exists in all of Italy. So I wonder if this could be observed and replicated both in Etruscans and Rheatian ancient DNA. As usual my observations are based mainly on J2a, but possibly also some L and maybe T. I did not study or find G, E clusters.
    Can haplotree.info be considered the most comprehensive ancient DNA list? The Max Planck study data seems to be not included yet. I apologize for not having followed the full thread here.
    haplotree.info Map with filter 3000,2000
    haplotree.info - ancientdna.info. Map based on All Ancient DNA v. 2.07.26. haplotree.info 202106.png
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    The fastq files and mtDNA BAM files have been uploaded. Let's hope they upload the full BAM files soon:

    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB42866
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
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    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    The fastq files and mtDNA BAM files have been uploaded. Let's hope they upload the full BAM files soon:

    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB42866
    Largest fastq is only 11 megabytes so there's not that much data to work with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    The fastq files and mtDNA BAM files have been uploaded. Let's hope they upload the full BAM files soon:

    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB42866
    We are not going to know the date of the samples, right? We simply going to guess... it's going to be fun

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