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Thread: The Harbour of the Old North

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    Finn is absolutely right when he points out that the current evidence for migration out of Baltic/Central Sweden during the LBA/IA into the rest of "Germania" doesnt fit with the archaeology. Or what we know regarding the climate. This is clearly not how Jastorf was formed.

    This is a pretty big deal as this is clearly the region to look for Celtic influences, which can be found with the East and North Germanic peoples. From Ukraine to the Polar circle!

    And quoting articles that position the Pre-/Proto germanic homeland in southern Scandinavia, baltics and Northern Germany isn't much of a clapback either as that is exactly what Finn is saying, and not what Angles is saying.

    Now we can debate if these peoples originated further south (Saale region) or were just local Single Grave descendants at the river mouths and the seas, but it are these populations that are key for the development of the NBA and also the ones living in the proposed region. Central Sweden in the bronze age, particularly the earlier part, might've been more Battle Axe influenced genetically.

    If a key argument are the contacts between ur-Germanic Sweden and Ur-Finnic and Ur-Saamic Estonia and Finland that go back to the dawn of the bronze age, then you are getting pretty close to saying that the Corded Ware migrants to those regions, with their stone battle axes, brought Pre-Pre-Proto-Germanic with them.

    So it really boils down to what happened in the early stages of the iron age, people going up, or people going down? There is quite an archaeological and genetic trail of Finnic populations going west and settling in modern day Sweden. Yet the Proto-Germanic language there had Celtic loanwords, and the languages down below did not have Finnic loanwords. Seems quite clear which directions the arrows point towards to...
    Last edited by CopperAxe; 06-17-2021 at 05:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    Finn is absolutely right when he points out that the current evidence for migration out of Baltic/Central Sweden during the LBA/IA into the rest of "Germania" doesnt fit with the archaeology. Or what we know regarding the climate. This is clearly not how Jastorf was formed.

    This is a pretty big deal as this is clearly the region to look for Celtic influences, which can be found with the East and North Germanic peoples. From Ukraine to the Polar circle!

    And quoting articles that position the Pre-/Proto germanic homeland in southern Scandinavia, baltics and Northern Germany isn't much of a clapback either as that is exactly what Finn is saying, and not what Angles is saying.

    Now we can debate if these peoples originated further south (Saale region) or were just local Single Grave descendants at the river mouths and the seas, but it are these populations that are key for the development of the NBA and also the ones living in the proposed region. Central Sweden in the bronze age, particularly the earlier part, might've been more Battle Axe influenced genetically.

    If a key argument are the contacts between ur-Germanic Sweden and Ur-Finnic and Ur-Saamic Estonia and Finland that go back to the dawn of the bronze age, then you are getting pretty close to saying that the Corded Ware migrants to those regions, with their stone battle axes, brought Pre-Pre-Proto-Germanic with them.

    So it really boils down to what happened in the early stages of the iron age, people going up, or people going down? There is quite an archaeological and genetic trail of Finnic populations going west and settling in modern day Sweden. Yet the Proto-Germanic language there had Celtic loanwords, and the languages down below did not have Finnic loanwords. Seems quite clear which directions the arrows point towards to...
    The papers quoted so far are fairly reserved in their claims (Southern Scandinavia), and don't actually make any claims about even more specific regions (Central-Eastern Sweden), but also universally disagree with the assertion that the precursors of proto-Germanic came from Central Europe, situating the precursors of Germanic in the Nordic Bronze Age.

    Mikko Heikilla's dissertation is very carefully done, deserves close reading, (its at the caliber of Sampsa Holopainen's work on IIr loans in Uralic) and is readable in translation (more readable than Russian works, anyway).

    I guess the best arguments that can be made for the stronger claim (Central Sweden) is that a) the proto-Language must have been spoken in quite a small area, and that b) this area must have been in a zone which had intensive contacts with Finnics (to the extent of introducing 10% proto-Germanic roots into Finnic) that are reflected in the archaeology. The homeland only gets constrained to E-C Sweden if one commits to a and b super strongly. In light of Mikko Heikkila's work, the last Germanic sound shift he sees taking place is shift number 26 which he dates "around the beginning of our era" in his stratification of sound changes in Germanic, Saamic and Finnic in pgs 97 onwards. So if Angles' hypothesis is correct the archaeological/genetic pulse (if there was one) would take place out of Eastern-Central Sweden to S Scandinavia and Denmark as late as the beginning of our era.

    But one can weaken assumptions a or b to produce different scenarios; for example, one could see proto-Germanic dialects emerging with waves of sound shifts, such that proto-Finnics (actually both proto-Finns and proto-Saami) came into contact with "proto-Germanics" (as far as we can tell using historical linguistics and sound shifts) for some time in the Malaren area/around the Baltics, before any sound changes took place that distinguished the dialect in Malaren area from the dialect in Denmark or further South. Of course, the dialects could have been different in some ways that did not leave signs in loanwords. That there was pre-Germanic influence in Finnic and Saami is unequivocal (there are so many loanwords that do not partake in all of the sound shifts found in proto-Germanic that Heikkila could stratify the sequence of changes), so the Malaren area could have been pre-Germanic for some time before a wave of linguistic influence from a more central location (e.g. Denmark) came that made it indistinguishable from proto-Germanic.

    I.e., something like the "Common slavic" scenario. Common slavic covered a massive area for quite some time (at least a century and probably longer) before splitting apart, for example, and W Germanic Christian terminology spread over that entire area even though the Slavics overlapped with Charlemagne and company only in the far west. Something indicative here is that the Celtic borrowings into proto-Germanic (e.g. rikas, King) which Mikko dated around 800BC got transmitted into Finnic as well, so a "Common Germanic" area could maybe be quite large, by analogy with the Slavic example.

    The biggest problem for this theory is that the loanwords in Finnic and Saami for some reason partook in the entire list of sound changes leading to proto-Germanic (super important for Angles' point of view), as opposed being loaned from some para-Germanic dialect that didn't share some of the changes more recently than some date. But I guess another way of interpreting this could be that the sound shifts in some cases may not refer to dialect changes in the Malaren area that spread out to say Denmark, but a sound change that took place in Denmark moving into the Malaren area? And the last proto-Germanic sound change actually took place earlier in Denmark but only got reflected in the Malaren area ~0AD. Just some thoughts.
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    ^^ Good summary. My "point of view" is modestly (and vaguely) Southern Scandinavia. For me, the Lake Mälaren region is rather a "point of interrogation", which is becoming a "point of fascination" since I started delving into the question of the first iron "industries" in the region.

    In the Red Earth area in the county of Västmanland, south central Sweden, iron production started at least around 700-600BC (Late Bronze Age M VI) and continued to around 200AD (Early/Late Roman
    Iron Age). The iron production sites have been studied to try to explain the significance of the iron production within the region from a very early state of acceptance of iron technology. The results present a continuity in the process technology and there are indications of carbon steel products from the earliest
    sites and onwards.
    (Grandin, L. & Hjärthner-Holdar, E. Early Iron Production in the Red Earth Area, South Central Sweden.
    – pp. 33–36 in ”Prehistoric and Medieval Direct Iron Smelting in Scandinavia and Europe. Aspects
    of Technology and Science”. Proceedings of the Sandbjerg Conference 16th to 20th September 1999 (Nørbach,
    ed). Comité Pour La Siderurgie Ancienne, l’UISPP. Acta Jutlandica LXXVI:2, Humanities Series 75. Aarhus University Press.)



    Swedish archaeologists had located very early traces of iron production. Pre-Roman Iron Age furnaces were dated in the 1980s
    (Wedberg 1984). This raised questions about the introduction of Iron to Scandinavia and is a main issue in Ewa Hjärthner-Holdars Ph.D.thesis from 1993. She had found sound evidence of iron production in dwelling sites from the Bronze Age. The discovery of bowl furnaces indicated that they managed to produce iron for several purposes. Iron technology was introduced in Sweden before 1000 BC, and this is astonishing.
    (Lars F. Stenvik Iron Production in Scandinavian Archaeology
    Norwegian Archaeological Review, Vol. 36, No. 2, 2003)
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    The papers quoted so far are fairly reserved in their claims (Southern Scandinavia), and don't actually make any claims about even more specific regions (Central-Eastern Sweden), but also universally disagree with the assertion that the precursors of proto-Germanic came from Central Europe, situating the precursors of Germanic in the Nordic Bronze Age.

    Mikko Heikilla's dissertation is very carefully done, deserves close reading, (its at the caliber of Sampsa Holopainen's work on IIr loans in Uralic) and is readable in translation (more readable than Russian works, anyway).

    I guess the best arguments that can be made for the stronger claim (Central Sweden) is that a) the proto-Language must have been spoken in quite a small area, and that b) this area must have been in a zone which had intensive contacts with Finnics (to the extent of introducing 10% proto-Germanic roots into Finnic) that are reflected in the archaeology. The homeland only gets constrained to E-C Sweden if one commits to a and b super strongly. In light of Mikko Heikkila's work, the last Germanic sound shift he sees taking place is shift number 26 which he dates "around the beginning of our era" in his stratification of sound changes in Germanic, Saamic and Finnic in pgs 97 onwards. So if Angles' hypothesis is correct the archaeological/genetic pulse (if there was one) would take place out of Eastern-Central Sweden to S Scandinavia and Denmark as late as the beginning of our era.

    But one can weaken assumptions a or b to produce different scenarios; for example, one could see proto-Germanic dialects emerging with waves of sound shifts, such that proto-Finnics (actually both proto-Finns and proto-Saami) came into contact with "proto-Germanics" (as far as we can tell using historical linguistics and sound shifts) for some time in the Malaren area/around the Baltics, before any sound changes took place that distinguished the dialect in Malaren area from the dialect in Denmark or further South. Of course, the dialects could have been different in some ways that did not leave signs in loanwords. That there was pre-Germanic influence in Finnic and Saami is unequivocal (there are so many loanwords that do not partake in all of the sound shifts found in proto-Germanic that Heikkila could stratify the sequence of changes), so the Malaren area could have been pre-Germanic for some time before a wave of linguistic influence from a more central location (e.g. Denmark) came that made it indistinguishable from proto-Germanic.

    I.e., something like the "Common slavic" scenario. Common slavic covered a massive area for quite some time (at least a century and probably longer) before splitting apart, for example, and W Germanic Christian terminology spread over that entire area even though the Slavics overlapped with Charlemagne and company only in the far west. Something indicative here is that the Celtic borrowings into proto-Germanic (e.g. rikas, King) which Mikko dated around 800BC got transmitted into Finnic as well, so a "Common Germanic" area could maybe be quite large, by analogy with the Slavic example.

    The biggest problem for this theory is that the loanwords in Finnic and Saami for some reason partook in the entire list of sound changes leading to proto-Germanic (super important for Angles' point of view), as opposed being loaned from some para-Germanic dialect that didn't share some of the changes more recently than some date. But I guess another way of interpreting this could be that the sound shifts in some cases may not refer to dialect changes in the Malaren area that spread out to say Denmark, but a sound change that took place in Denmark moving into the Malaren area? And the last proto-Germanic sound change actually took place earlier in Denmark but only got reflected in the Malaren area ~0AD. Just some thoughts.

    Thanks Ryykendo.
    if Angles' hypothesis is correct the archaeological/genetic pulse (if there was one) would take place out of Eastern-Central Sweden to S Scandinavia and Denmark as late as the beginning of our era.
    That didn't happen, certainly not to North Central Europe, at least there is no evidence this occurred in LBA>IA, nor about 0 AD.

    I don't think that we can pinpoint the whole development to one specific area. Imo it's an interaction between the North European Plain (unto the Erzgeberge) / North Central Europe and Southern Scandinavia. The development could have had a push in different times and regions. But they were close and influenced each other.

    In the publications of recent years Single Grave plays a key role. They brought the Indo-European component into the later on Germanic language. They came about 2850 BC to the area around the North Sea (range North-Dutch unto Jutland) they were rooted around the Saale. There was a kind of reflux in the form of Bell Beakers. And archeologist like Butler and Fokkens have proposed that there was a new wave of immigrants in EBA. Most probably, seen the archeological resemblance, from Unetice (again Saale area) at that time the powerhouse in North Central Europe.

    Anyhow immigrants or not. I agree with Kallio:
    I still prefer to locate the Germanic homeland in Denmark and adjacent areas.
    makes perfectly sense (besides my remark about homeland), already in the Sögel-Wohlde period (EBA). And I only make the add that before EBA the Saale region, seen the topology names (Udolph)and Euler (2009), ('the Nebra sky disk makers spoke Ur-Germanic)', could have spoken embryonal forms of Germanic (as it is the homeland of Single Grave and probably Sögel Wohlde).

    Everyone can have their pet theory, Angles too, but it has too make sense (and must have some proof) of course!
    Last edited by Finn; 06-18-2021 at 07:15 AM.

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    I found this map in E.Hjärtna-Holdar and C. Risberg "Technology of Iron: Choices and Innovation". I think that this map comes from one of Hjärtna-Holdar's books. Unfortunately, it is given without more precise information. It's really frustrating because fascinatingly it matches exactly what Myrhe says (about the Volga route from Mälaren down to the Aegeans through the Balkans hub). Is someone able to guess what the black triangles are?
    Capture.JPG
    Incidentally, I must, again and again, correct the trivial insinuations of finn, and that starts being tiring. If the "pet theory" is the formation of proto-Germanic in Scandinavia, it's not "Angle's theory" but the model supported (with differences and nuances about which we have already spoken) by ... Kallio, Koivulehto, Häkkinen, Heikkilä, Carpela, Parpolan, the brothers Aikio, Kylstra, Hofstra, Schrijver, Koch, Ringe, for only naming the searchers who have intervened by their texts on this thread and some others. How many authoritative people (outside of me who am not authoritative) support this model? I don't know, but really many.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    I found this map in E.Hjärtna-Holdar and C. Risberg "Technology of Iron: Choices and Innovation". I think that this map comes from one of Hjärtna-Holdar's books. Unfortunately, it is given without more precise information. It's really frustrating because fascinatingly it matches exactly what Myrhe says (about the Volga route from Mälaren down to the Aegeans through the Balkans hub). Is someone able to guess what the black triangles are?
    Capture.JPG
    Incidentally, I must, again and again, correct the trivial insinuations of finn, and that starts being tiring. If the "pet theory" is the formation of proto-Germanic in Scandinavia, it's not "Angle's theory" but the model supported (with differences and nuances about which we have already spoken) by ... Kallio, Koivulehto, Häkkinen, Heikkilä, Carpela, Parpolan, the brothers Aikio, Kylstra, Hofstra, Schrijver, Koch, Ringe, for only naming the searchers who have intervened by their texts on this thread and some others. How many authoritative people (outside of me who am not authoritative) support this model? I don't know, but really many.
    Looks like a map of C.S. Coon Angles, same time?
    More than authoritatives (I guess I'm too much Northerner to have a 'Romance fetish with authority' but side remark to be taken with salt), we need some prove and a narrative that makes sense.

    The Nordic Bronze Age overflow to Jastorf (LBA>IA) is unlikely. No evidence. There is counter evidence. So makes no sense.
    And if we agree that at least Jastorf spoke proto-Germanic than the background is different than made in Sweden. Simple as that.

    And about Kallio:
    I still prefer to locate the Germanic homeland in Denmark and adjacent areas.
    Here is the ukaze of the grand master Angles!
    Last edited by Finn; 06-18-2021 at 08:14 AM.

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    ^^ You often make very particular use of the texts, as it has already been highlighted. Quoting a line written by Kallio, you make sure not to precise:
    1) that this line is written as a conclusion to a paragraph that is not precisely in line with your personal views. Here it is, in its complete version.

    Moreover, Udolph (1994: 916-917) discusses the early Germanic loanwords in
    Finnic only briefly, and he does not even mention those in Saami. His only reference
    is to his own teacher Wolfgang P. Schmid (1986: 166-167) who also fails to cite a
    single primary study on the topic. Thus, it is hardly a wonder that Udolph ends up
    dating the earliest Germanic-Finnic contacts to the beginning of our era. This would
    have been acceptable half a century ago, but now it sounds as old-fashioned as the rest
    of his historical linguistic views (for which see especially Bichlmeier 2012, 2013).
    True, Udolph is not the only contemporary scholar to support such late datings,
    but what all these scholars have in common is that they have never themselves
    conducted research on Germanic-Finnic loanwords, meaning that we are here
    speaking of non-expert rather than expert opinions. The last apparent exception
    was the late Ralf-Peter Ritter (2002), although even he admitted that the earliest
    Germanic loanwords in Finnic may date earlier than the beginning of our era, thus
    agreeing with the standard contemporary view within Germanic-Finnic loanword
    studies (as represented, in particular, by Hofstra 1995; Hahmo & Hofstra 1998;
    Koivulehto 2002; Hahmo 2004; Kallio 2012b).
    To sum up, the assumption of a Germanic homeland in Central Germany is not
    at all convincing (cf. also Schrijver 2014), not to mention the notion that Germanic
    would have expanded more than one thousand kilometres to the north during the
    Pre-Roman Iron Age when global climate conditions became cooler and wetter.
    As the Germanic maritime vocabulary is a further argument for a coastal rather
    than an inland origin, I still prefer to locate the Germanic homeland in Denmark
    and adjacent areas.
    2) that Kallio has clarified the three last quoted words in another text (written in the same years).
    kallio.JPG
    I have already (and perhaps more than one time, it's difficult to be sure in such a circular debate) noticed that I'm not comfortable with Kallio's formulation, because I find that it makes a really large area for a proto-language. But I don't want to make a religion on this, because I don't forget that this whole space, spread from Denmark to Central Sweden and Norway (and even higher toward the North), was tightly integrated, in particular by maritime routes. Furthermore, my feeling, that on this line between possibly Mälaren on one side and Denmark+Schleswig+WPoland on the other, we have perhaps the birth of the first dialectal split (letting the Gothic branch apart), is the feeling of an amateur who keeps always in mind that he is an amateur. It's not the case of everybody in the corner.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    ^^ You often make very particular use of the texts, as it has already been highlighted. Quoting a line written by Kallio, you make sure not to precise:
    1) that this line is written as a conclusion to a paragraph that is not precisely in line with your personal views. Here it is, in its complete version.


    2) that Kallio has clarified the three last quoted words in another text (written in the same years).
    kallio.JPG
    I have already (and perhaps more than one time, it's difficult to be sure in such a circular debate) noticed that I'm not comfortable with Kallio's formulation, because I find that it makes a really large area for a proto-language. But I don't want to make a religion on this, because I don't forget that this whole space, spread from Denmark to Central Sweden and Norway (and even higher toward the North), was tightly integrated, in particular by maritime routes. Furthermore, my feeling, that on this line between possibly Mälaren on one side and Denmark+Schleswig+WPoland on the other, we have perhaps the birth of the first dialectal split (letting the Gothic branch apart), is the feeling of an amateur who keeps always in mind that he is an amateur. It's not the case of everybody in the corner.
    Yes but that's not weird for a historian that core business as long as the narrative makes sense (with prove in the sense of sources). And it's seldom that in a complex case of a supposed heartland agree, there are several things at stake. We get new findings. Insights and perspectives change through time. That's 'the art' of history writing.

    So it's quite legitimate to agree with a part of Kallio. We are not to suppose to embrace him on the whole. Certainly not with that marked text. Again: no evidence, just counter evidence....

    You accused me of being a mule. I guess this time it's the reverse. There is a Dutch saying: "Een ezel stoot zich in het algemeen niet twee keer aan dezelfde steen" (A donkey generally does not hit the stone twice). The Nordic Bronze Age> Jastorf assumption is your stone Angles!

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    Not meaning to divert this topic from the bickering, but last night I happened upon the last half of the one-week rerun of a June 10th program (series 1, episode 10) on the Science Channel, "Strangest Things." The episode is (mostly) about the Nebra artifact; title is "Secrets of the Star Disk". However, the last 15 minutes (including the commercials) are about an unrelated item, Fleming's Diode.

    Anyway, there is nice closeup photography of the disk, zooming in on this or that detail. And there is at least some discussion of its dating and cultural milieu (~ 1600 BC, Unetice), especially by 14C study of some birch fragments in the handle of a sword from the same find. With respect to the disk itself, the copper was from the east side of the Alps, but the gold was from Cornwall. Or so they say. It's "popular," but more current than most of what's in print about the Nebra disk. If I see it announced in my near-term future TV scanning, I hope to catch the first 30 minutes. That may have been about the discovery, excavation (by "criminals"), international intrigues over who should own it, and other exciting stuff to make the viewer keep watching the commercials.
    Last edited by razyn; 06-18-2021 at 11:23 AM.

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    This inconsistent chatter gives me heartburn. I stop, I will let off steam on my punching bag.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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