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Thread: The Harbour of the Old North

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    One post more about the eastern Baltic side of the coin. First, as some people seemingly have very strong opinions about the dating of the arrival of the first Balto-Finnic speaking people in SW-Finland, a short quote from Kallio. " (Kallio, once more", will perhaps think some readers, and if they are ignorant of the matter, they will perhaps get the impression that all this is the fact of one only specialist. It's far from true, and Kallio himself bases his views on a long-lasting tradition of research. But Kallio is likely among the great Finnish scholars one of those who have the most often written in English. As I have decided to refer only to texts written in English or German (I'll make today an exception with one written in Swedish), Kallio logically intervenes often. )
    (Stratigraphy of Indo-European Loanwords in Saami)



    As for people who argue that, as Balto-Finnish was not spoken in SW-Finland before the Iron Age (at the earliest), there cannot exist early Germanic ("early" for pre-, paleo and - early-proto- ) loanwords in Balto-Finnic, it's enough to make them notice that precisely this claim is made impossible by the existence of these loanwords. Unless getting stuck in a circular debate, the least I can wait from those opponents is linguistic arguments strong enough to prove that Kallio, Aikio, Koivulehto before them (who was primarily a great germanicist), and I don't know how many others, are all false. As these opponents are obviously absolutely ignorant in historical linguistics (for not speaking of Uralic linguistics), I wish them good luck.

    Kallio (once more!) writes ( in "Languages in the prehistoric baltic sea region" p 236)
    Attachment 45154
    I want to give in this post some glimpses on this Germanic-speaking Finland (to call it shortly). First of all a passionating (and rather difficult) thesis sustained in 2010 by the Swedish archaeologist Peter Holmblad: Coastal Communities on the Move, House and Polity Interaction in Southern Ostrobothnia 1500 BC – AD 1 (https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/ge...FULLTEXT01.pdf)

    This remarkable study deserves a patient and careful reading (200 pages anyway). I will only say that it describes from the beginning of the Bronze Age a society structured in Houses (in the exact sense of the "sociétés de Maisons" of Claude Levy-Strauss), following on from the thesis defended in 2009 by the Swedish Magnus Artursson, for the same period, on the Scandinavian side (Bebyggelse och samhällsstruktur. Södra och mellersta Skandinavien under senneolitikum och bronsålder 2300-500 f. Kr https://gupea.ub.gu.se/handle/2077/20054). The thesis to which this description leads is, in our context, absolutely fascinating.



    As an archaeological bonus, a short and old (1984) study: Ari Siirinen, BROMARV AND LUOPIOINEN: TWO EARLY BRONZE AGE FINDS FROM FINLAND
    I'm curious about how Finn will be tempted to interpret the fact that one of these swords is of a type common in Sögel-Wohlde culture.
    http://www.sarks.fi/fa/PDF/FA1_51.pdf

    To fin(n)ish (for today), a study by Koivulehto of some Germanic toponyms in Finland. This study is in Swedish, but Google-translate works well (or not so bad) with Swedish. You'll find in it a study of the toponym Eura- (in Eurajoki) already discussed on this forum, with Jaska (in the linguistic subforum). I found the study of the toponym Harjavalta particularly interesting. Jorma Koivulehto, Namn som kan tolkas som urgermanskt
    https://www.sls.fi/sites/default/fil...s/pdf/1348.pdf
    Wow they have reached fare! On the other side it doesn't this "pre-proto-Germanics" with a center around the North Sea they could have reached the Baltic Sea of course no doubt.

    Nevertheless I would like to see how you cope:
    the Nordic Bronze Age culture expanded southwards, to form the Jastorf culture (c. 600–0 BCE)
    With Jens Martens:
    If North Jutland were included in the Jastorf culture, the effect would be that this notion was deprived of any meaning.
    I guess the Finnish linguist may have had a good view on the (proto) Germanic and Finnic/Saami interaction, but their view on the (proto) Germanic development on the North German plain c.q North Central Europe is too short sighted. May be not their main concern.
    Last edited by Finn; 06-13-2021 at 03:51 PM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    That delivers a nice puzzle JmcB, we got Cimbri from NW Jutland. Koch points at 'Celtic'. Jens Martens has stated: "If North Jutland were included in the Jastorf culture, the effect would be that this notion was deprived of any meaning." So we could say the Cimbri from Northern Jutland were not 'Germanic' in "Jastorfian" sense?
    From my reading of Koch, he’s saying the Cimbri were a mixed group of people with components of both Celtic and Germanic origins by the time they enter the historical record. I doubt we’ll ever know how they came to their final configuration. If Manco is right and people we’re leaving Northern Jutland because it was no longer a friendly agricultural environment, in the period leading up to the Jastorf Culture. Then it would make sense that the Jastorf culture wouldn’t be interested in that area. It’s been a while since I read Martens paper but if I remember correctly, he points out that the burials in Northern Jutland were much poorer. With hardly any grave goods included because people wanted to continue using the items instead of burying them. Which would jibe with what Manco said, that it had ceased to be a fruitful place because of environmental reasons.
    Last edited by JMcB; 06-13-2021 at 05:12 PM.
    Paper Trail: 42.25% English, 31.25% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German, 6.25% Sicilian & 1.5% French. Or: 86% British Isles, 6.25% German, 6.25% Sicilian & 1.5% French.
    LDNA(c): 86.3% British Isles (48.6% English, 37.7% Scottish & Irish), 7.8% NW Germanic, 5.9% Europe South (Aegean 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%)
    BigY 700: I1-Z140 >I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 620 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 765 AD) >FT80854 (circa 1650 AD).

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  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMcB View Post
    From my reading of Koch, he’s saying the Cimbri were a mixed group of people with components of both Celtic and Germanic origins by the time they enter the historical record. I doubt we’ll ever know how they came to their final configuration. If Manco is right and people we’re leaving Northern Jutland because it was no longer a friendly agricultural environment, in the period leading up to the Jastorf Culture.Then it would make sense that the Jastorf culture wouldn’t be interested in that area. It’s been a while since I read Martens paper but if I remember correctly, he points out that the burials in Northern Jutland were much poorer. With hardly any grave goods included because people wanted to continue using the items instead of burying them. Which would jibe with what Manco said, that it had ceased to be a fruitful place because of environmental reasons.
    The postulate of Kallio c.s. is that Jastorf is a Nordic Bronze Age derivative. If that it's true it makes really no sense that the more North the less Jastorf, because when Jastorf was a Nordic Bronze Age derivative it would be the reverse. So more southwards the less Jastorf! But it was 180 degrees the other way around.

    And not only because of other grave goods but also because of a different kind of pottery. There are other traditions at stake.

    Really if Jastorf was a derivative in culture and people from the Nordic Bronze this could not be true.

    What is said about Jutland is also said about the world between the Rhine and Weser, compared to Jastorf this was also pretty meager with grave goods etc. But both neighboring 'cultures' (Harpstedt Nienburg and Jastorf) were about the 53rd parallel north, so no different climate conditions.

    And in the end it makes not sense that Northern Jutland, from Aalborg in Northern Jutland to Flensburg on the border with Germany it's less than 300 kilometer, imo that could not be the distant between: impossible to contain agriculture and a flourishing agriculture...

    So Kallio and Manco had a big thumb

  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMcB View Post
    From my reading of Koch, he’s saying the Cimbri were a mixed group of people with components of both Celtic and Germanic origins by the time they enter the historical record. I doubt we’ll ever know how they came to their final configuration. If Manco is right and people we’re leaving Northern Jutland because it was no longer a friendly agricultural environment, in the period leading up to the Jastorf Culture. Then it would make sense that the Jastorf culture wouldn’t be interested in that area. It’s been a while since I read Martens paper but if I remember correctly, he points out that the burials in Northern Jutland were much poorer. With hardly any grave goods included because people wanted to continue using the items instead of burying them. Which would jibe with what Manco said, that it had ceased to be a fruitful place because of environmental reasons.

    That climate condition played a part in LBA> Iron Age has some truth, but if it was in Sweden/ Northern Jutland worse than in Schleswig or Friesland? Seems not:

    I have investigated more closely two cases of possible causal relationships between climate change and society in the Swedish Iron Age. The two cases give partly diverging results. The period of abrupt cooling starting about 850 BC is well documented in the Netherlands and has been demonstrated to have had a decisive influence on settlement and society there, especially for coastal settlements. Evidence that this cooling had any clear effect on society and settlement in Sweden, however, is lacking: neither the detailed climate reconstructions nor possible effects on society have yet been clarified for Sweden. On the other hand, new evidence of a distinct and comparatively short period of colder climate, caused by a dust veil of volcanic origin in AD 536 and the following year(s), directly ties in with a well-documented period of crisis, decline, and settlement abandonment. This new evidence challenges many of the established explanations of this crisis, which have emphasized political and economic factors, but not climate change. However, I would argue that the two explanations are not mutually exclusive. Our new knowledge of the volcanic dust veil, and of two summers with distinctly lower temperatures, could explain the rapid and unmistakable decline in settlements and open lands evidenced in the archaeological and paleoecological record of some areas. On the other hand, the regional and social variation in the effects cannot be explained by the climate alone. The stagnation had started before the sixth century, and the dust veil aggravated the crisis considerably. However, vulnerability was not evenly distributed, either geographically or socially, so the new evidence does not contradict the political, economic, and social factors that were proposed in earlier interpretations of the stagnation process.
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...stand_the_past
    Last edited by Finn; 06-13-2021 at 07:20 PM.

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  7. #65
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    NBA influence into the Kinukainen culture has nothing to do with Germanic influence in Uralic languages.

    Neither the PCC or Corded Ware were Uralic speaking and the Kiukainen culture is a fusion of those two.

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    As they say, haste makes waste. I read your citation above too quickly, which led to a misreading of Widgren’s text.

    See below.
    Last edited by JMcB; 06-14-2021 at 02:29 AM.
    Paper Trail: 42.25% English, 31.25% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German, 6.25% Sicilian & 1.5% French. Or: 86% British Isles, 6.25% German, 6.25% Sicilian & 1.5% French.
    LDNA(c): 86.3% British Isles (48.6% English, 37.7% Scottish & Irish), 7.8% NW Germanic, 5.9% Europe South (Aegean 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%)
    BigY 700: I1-Z140 >I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 620 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 765 AD) >FT80854 (circa 1650 AD).

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    Quote Originally Posted by JMcB View Post
    At a glance , these don’t appear to be that far apart. While he does mention the regional variations in the effects that were felt. There's no mention of northern Jutland in his quote. Of course, it’s possible he mentions it somewhere else in the paper. So I’ll read it before commenting any further. At any rate, it looks like it’ll be interesting, no matter what.
    536 AD is a different situation, and can't be translated to LBA (late IA was vulcano and dust!).

    And the core thing is when it was in LBA in Sweden/ Northern Jutland it was also worse it would make no sense to go southwards to Schleswig/ North-Friesland because the researcher stressed the impact of the climate conditions were much worse on especially coastal societies (floods etc)!

    So a refuge from Jutland to Schleswig that would be like a Dutch saying: "from the rain into the water drops".

    So from cultural, archeological and environmental perspective the supposed Nordic Bronze Age> Jastorf expansion makes no sense.
    Last edited by Finn; 06-14-2021 at 09:18 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    536 AD is a different situation, and can't be translated to LBA (late IA was vulcano and dust!).

    And the core thing is when it was in LBA in Sweden/ Northern Jutland it was also worse it would make no sense to go southwards to Schleswig/ North-Friesland because the researcher stressed the impact of the climate conditions were much worse on especially coastal societies (floods etc)!

    So a refuge from Jutland to Schleswig that would be like Dutch saying: "from the rain into the water drops".

    So from cultural, archeological and environmental perspective the supposed Nordic Bronze Age> Jastorf expansion makes no sense.
    Yes, you’re right. I read that too quickly. I saw the 850 BC in the first part of the quote and didn’t make the transition. As Jean had also mentioned 500 BC. At any rate, I should have read the paper first!
    Last edited by JMcB; 06-13-2021 at 10:55 PM.
    Paper Trail: 42.25% English, 31.25% Scottish, 12.5% Irish, 6.25% German, 6.25% Sicilian & 1.5% French. Or: 86% British Isles, 6.25% German, 6.25% Sicilian & 1.5% French.
    LDNA(c): 86.3% British Isles (48.6% English, 37.7% Scottish & Irish), 7.8% NW Germanic, 5.9% Europe South (Aegean 3.4%, Tuscany 1.3%, Sardinia 1.1%)
    BigY 700: I1-Z140 >I-F2642 >Y1966 >Y3649 >A13241 >Y3647 >A13248 (circa 620 AD) >A13242/YSEQ (circa 765 AD) >FT80854 (circa 1650 AD).

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    Quote Originally Posted by JMcB View Post
    Yes, you’re right. I read that too quickly. I saw the 850 BC in the first part of the quote and didn’t make the transition. As Jean had also mentioned 500 BC. At any rate, I should have read the paper first!
    Ok that happens. Nevertheless the claim that Jastorf is a Nordic Bronze Age derivative, c.q. a 'movement' from North to South in LBA bridge IA, is seen the archeological and environmental circumstances not plausible....
    Last edited by Finn; 06-14-2021 at 10:01 AM.

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    I've been told privately that a problem for someone who wants to get educated about the contacts Germanic vs Balto-Finnic has to make the synthesis of many disparate texts (many authors and very different years of publication). That's true, this science is in progress for many years. I'm asked whether there are some books useful to get an ensemble view. I know one, rather recent (2015), and excellent (which doesn't mean that we have to agree with everything in it). The only problem: it is written in Swedish, and btw the author explains why he chose to publish it in Swedish. I'm not aware of any English translation.

    Mikko Heikkilä, Bidrag till Fennoskandiens språkliga förhistoria i tid och rum. Helsinki: Unigrafia, 2014

    Presentation in English https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...6BDCC22ABDC676

    https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/33724447.pdf

    Among many precious elements, this dissertation (university of Helsingfors, 350 pages) contains the most detailed ( afaik) study of the Germanic toponyms in South Finland.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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