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Thread: The Harbour of the Old North

  1. #471
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    I thought the relation between Baltic Corded Ware groups and Scandinavian Battle Axe cultures were quite supported, not the case?

    The difference between Single Grave culture and Battle Axe culture are quite stark and there is very little territorial overlap. The Single Grave culture also isn't younger, and I'm getting the feeling that R1b-L51 tribes reached the northwestof continental Europe a bit earlier than the R1a Corded Ware groups so then the Battle Axe progenitors must've migrated through Single Grave territory, without settling on the way.
    Both Baltic CWC (Gyvakarai1_10bp and Kunila2 ) and Battle Axe (ber1,..) had https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y2395/ (Pre Z284) what probably is not a coincidence. Not sure what exactly was the direction of migration here.

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  3. #472
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Both Baltic CWC (Gyvakarai1_10bp and Kunila2 ) and Battle Axe (ber1,..) had https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y2395/ (Pre Z284) what probably is not a coincidence. Not sure what exactly was the direction of migration here.
    What do the early Baltic CW samples belong to? Or are they both female?

  4. #473
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGPF View Post
    It seems likely that R1a-L664 (probably in Sweden around 2500 BCE or earlier) followed the Lüneburger Heath route as there is no L664 in Estonian CW, but there is in German CW.
    L664 in Swedish Battle Axe, where? Aren't they all Z645?

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  6. #474
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    R1A-S2894 (below L664) can be dated to 2500 BCE. It has not been found in aDNA from the CW period. aDNA with S2894 from the Viking period has been found in Sweden, Ireland (viking) and Greenland. An analysis of the two groups below S2894 (Big-Y only files) indicates an origine in Våstergotland, Sweden, around 2500 BC It is, therefore, in my view likely that S2894 was present in BAC. But we have to wait for the first aDNA sample with S2894 from the CW period.

    I would like to add an picture of the result of the analysis, but the upload fails...

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    picture.jpg

    and the picture attached

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  10. #476
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    "In a recent work Zwelebil (1995) proposed that the study of European prehistory is dominated by a farming ideology. In a similar vein we wish to suggest that the study of later European prehistory, and especially the Bronze Age, has failed to make convincing progress because among other things it is dominated by a farming or peasant ideology of immobility which is derived from a more recent European past. By implicitly assuming that prehistoric farmers were as immobile as their historic counterparts, archaeologists have failed to grasp the specific historic character of the Bronze Age: they have failed to recognise its 'otherness'. These interpretative assumptions are perhaps not purely implicit. The recent revival of Fernand Braudel and his longue duree has enforced this unhappy transmission of a medieval historical tradition on to prehistory (Bintliff 199 1 ) . While we recognise the theoretical relevance of at least some of the Braudelian propositions , such as different ' time cycles' and a longue duree for certain types of social formations, it would be unwise to adopt an immobile and unchangeable medieval model of peasant societies . As we shall demonstrate, farming communities of the Bronze Age were characterised by a very different social dynamic and cosmology.
    Peasants of medieval, historical time were first and foremost characterised by their obligations and economic bonds to their feudal lords. They were defined by this economic and social relationship as a dependent class, constrained in their social and economic freedom, and consequently also in their mobility. Although longer travels might be part of their duties, e .g. carrying goods and people for their lords, they were basically linked to their land. Trade was in the hands of the landed nobility and the new growing merchant classes in the towns . Marriage patterns demonstrate this immo* bility of the peasant class whereas the nobility had quite different marriage patterns.
    The immobility of the peasant class is also reflected in a number of other ways in material culture and language. Strong local dialects in language developed, making communication difficult between certain regions . The upper class at the same time adopted international languages - Latin, and later German or English. In contrast a common Scandinavian language was used during the Late Iron Age and the Viking period, according to runic inscriptions, from rune stones to the messages of ordinary people on wooden sticks. Some hundreds of years later the development of a feudal society,with the subsequent subjection and immobilisation of the peasants,had generated dozens of local and often rather distinct dialects. The same process can be observed in the building tradition of farm-houses . From being rather homogeneous during the Late Iron Age and Viking period. although with slight regional variations,diversification dominated during the medieval and historical period leading to very distinct regional differences (Steensberg 1952 and 1973; Stoklund 1972).
    This historical development may be used to demonstrate the close connection between mobility and material culture and language,a theme to which we shall return. However, our main objective in this chapter is to demonstrate that in terms of mobility the Bronze Age, and with it many prestate chiefdoms,exhibits a perception of mobility and travel completely different from historically known peasant societies. We believe that an understanding of this 'otherness' is a crucial precondition for a correct reconstruction of Bronze Age society."
    This afternoon I thought back to this passage from Kristiansen ("The Rise of the Bronze Age society"), and I wondered if our quest for a geographical location of a very delimited core where the Proto-Germanic would have remained, at least some time, in isolation, is not off the mark. As if, having poured a drop of dye into a container filled with a liquid traversed by convection currents, one wondered afterwards where the drop came into contact with the surface. I know that linguists are always looking for a very compact area for proto-languages, and I myself posted a quote from Ringe that recalls this. Under the influence of Kristiansen's reading (who, it's true, tells nonsense as soon as he gets involved in linguistics), I wonder whether in this specific case linguists do not err on the side of abstraction by failing to take into account the mobility conditions of the societies involved in their models. If these conditions were at the origin of the relative linguistic uniformity of Scandinavia at the end of the Iron Age, were they not all the more so at the beginning, and a fortiori in the Bronze Age? Your thoughts?
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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  12. #477
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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    This afternoon I thought back to this passage from Kristiansen ("The Rise of the Bronze Age society"), and I wondered if our quest for a geographical location of a very delimited core where the Proto-Germanic would have remained, at least some time, in isolation, is not off the mark. As if, having poured a drop of dye into a container filled with a liquid traversed by convection currents, one wondered afterwards where the drop came into contact with the surface. I know that linguists are always looking for a very compact area for proto-languages, and I myself posted a quote from Ringe that recalls this. Under the influence of Kristiansen's reading (who, it's true, tells nonsense as soon as he gets involved in linguistics), I wonder whether in this specific case linguists do not err on the side of abstraction by failing to take into account the mobility conditions of the societies involved in their models. If these conditions were at the origin of the relative linguistic uniformity of Scandinavia at the end of the Iron Age, were they not all the more so at the beginning, and a fortiori in the Bronze Age? Your thoughts?
    Since much talk has been on R1b U 106 ( rightly because it is of paramount importance for the germanic family) why also put in perspective the role of I1 in northern Europe. After all

    1) germanic doesn't look like a full fledged Bell Beaker language
    2) germanic does not look like a full fledged CW language
    3) germanic has both features of satem and centum IIRC

    What about the role in its formation of clans of I1 . If anything the possible role of I1 would give a big push to your scandinavian theory. I1 is as scandinavian as you can get. Perhaps TRBC survivors that switched to IE but " developing" ( so to speak) their own peculiar language. Just to enlarge the debate.


    Haplogroup_I1.png
    Last edited by etrusco; 09-05-2021 at 07:50 PM.

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  14. #478
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    Etrusco ^^ The "Scandinavian theory", in a broad sense, from Jastorf to Mälaren, is not mine. I support it, but it's not mine. As for the rest, I am not used to this kind of reasoning (exfiltrating linguistic questions from the linguistic field into archaeological or genetic fields). If you believe in the soundness of this sort of (allegedly multidisciplinary) methodology you may read Kuzmenko ("РАННИЕ ГЕРМАНЦЫ И ИХ СОСЕДИ", 2011). It's not my cup of tea (nor my glass of vodka nor my bock of beer).

    edit: Kuzmenko "RANNIYe GERMANTSY I IKH SOSEDI" (Early Germans and their Neighbours"). https://iling.spb.ru/pdf/kuzmenko/kuzmenko_2011.pdf
    Last edited by anglesqueville; 09-06-2021 at 06:57 AM.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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