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Thread: The Harbour of the Old North

  1. #151
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    In a blog of Olivier van Renswoude, about the Germanic Urheimat, there is a saillant detail:

    The Germanic Urheimat may not have been far from the Celts either. The name they had for the Celts in general proves this: *Walhōz. This is because Germanic has inherited it from its immediate predecessor, from the time before the Germanic sound shift. The form was then still *Wolkōs, as a borrowing from (the predecessor of) Volcae, the name of several Celtic tribes on the mainland. In other words, if Germanic was born in the far north and then spread to the south, where the Volcae and other Celts lived, they would call it *Wolkōz (or *Walkōz, as Old Germanic did not have a short *o) , not *Walhaz.

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  3. #152
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    Reconstruction: Proto-Celtic/wolkos
    Proto-Celtic
    Etymology
    Of uncertain origin, possibly related to *ulkos (“bad, evil”), hinted by early Celtic farmers' hostility towards birds of prey. If so, cognate with Old Irish olc.[1]

    Ulk is stil used in Lower Saxon, as synonym for dirty (when I played with my friends in the garden and got dirty, then they said: du ulk!

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Recon...-Celtic/wolkos

    Like barbarian?
    Last edited by Finn; 06-23-2021 at 12:32 PM.

  4. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    In a blog of Olivier van Renswoude, about the Germanic Urheimat, there is a saillant detail:
    But the name of the carpathians in some Germanic languages also went through the same sound shift (k --> h), and its not possible that the proto-Germanic homeland stretched all the way to the Carpathians... Mikko Heikkila's explanation is better: this sound shift was late to happen and sound shifts take ~2 generations to spread throughout a linguistic community, sometimes more. Because of this you can't localise things too precisely using this method.
    Last edited by Ryukendo; 06-23-2021 at 08:59 PM.
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  6. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    But the name of the carpathians in some Germanic languages also went through the same sound shift (k --> h), and its not possible that the proto-Germanic homeland stretched all the way to the Carpathians... Mikko Heikkila's explanation is better: this sound shift was late to happen and sound shifts take ~2 generations to spread throughout a linguistic community, sometimes more. Because of this you can't localise things too precisely using this method.
    Isn't Harvaða pretty much our only attestation of Germanic word for Carpathians?

    Given the early mentions of the Scirii and Bastarnae (whoever the hell they were) you could have a presence of Germanic peoples near the Carpathians during the 3rd century b.c. Not to mention there could've been awareness of the mountain range and the people living there prior to the migrations.

    Doesnt Heikilla basically suggest that these soundchanges happened during the 500-200 bc period, correlating with the change of the archaeological record in Scandinavia? I dont really see a mention of a (partial) later sound shift actually, just that the hydronyms of the Rhine, Danube and Mains were borrowed from Celtic , with the Danube after the first PGmc soundshift even, whereas the term Carpathians must've been known prior to it.

    I don't see how this necessitates the relevant sound shift to have occured by the time of christ for example.

    Just to confirm, we are talking about the article "Bidrag till Fennoskandiens språkliga förhistoria i tid och rum" right?

    Av ljuddräkterna
    framgår det att de urkeltiska ljudövergångarna *p >> Ø och därpåföljande *kʷ
    > p är båda äldre än den germanska ljudskridningen. Också upplösningen av de
    syllabiska resonanterna *R̥ > aR och *ē > ī är äldre urkeltiska ljudövergångar än
    den urgermanska ljudskridningen, såsom ljuddräkterna av de keltiska lånorden
    rik (jfr kelt. rix, lat. rex) och (kelt. íarn ʼjärnʼ <) urkelt. *īsarno (jfr ambactus) –>
    urgerm. *īsarna > fhty. īsarn, got. eisarn [i:sarn] ʼjärnʼ visar. Kronologin i de
    urkeltiska och urgermanska ljudövergångarna kan därmed också relateras till
    varandra. Intressant nog har namnet på den östeuropeiska bergskedjan Karpaterna
    belagts i nordgermanskan i en form som visar genomgången ljudskridning och
    Verners lag: pregerm. *Kárpatōz (jfr lat. Carpatae) > urgerm. *Xárfaðōz >
    fvn. Harfaðafjǫll ʼKarpaternaʼ (Ramat 1981: 12–13). Detta faktum tyder på att germanernas östexpansion skedde innan germanerna spred sig till Rhens floddal.
    Det verkar följaktligen som om de germanska folkstammarnas spridning och den
    germanska ljudskridningen löpte parallellt.
    Urgermanskan verkar ha genomgått rätt stora fonologiska förändringar på en
    tämligen kort tid under förromersk järnålder. Av det arkeologiska vittnesbördet
    att döma skedde det betydande socioekonomiska förändringar i det nordiska
    samhället mellan just ca 500 och 200 f.Kr. (Cunliffe 2008: 348–349). Det är
    knappast fråga om en ren slump. Som jämförelse kan nämnas att de många
    urnordiska ljudövergångarna skedde under och snart efter folkvandringstiden
    (se kapitel 3). Den ovan framlagda förteckningen över ljudövergångarnas
    kronologi kan i framtiden eventuellt ytterligare kompletteras med de allra
    äldsta pregermanska och västuraliska ljudövergångarna.
    Last edited by CopperAxe; 06-23-2021 at 10:55 PM.

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  8. #155
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    furgerm. den germanska ljudskridningen (två stadier > längd minst
    två generationer) (ca 700 f.Kr. –>)
    5.1 *pʰ, *tʰ, *kʰ, *kʰʷ > *ϕ, *þ, *χ, *χʷ (> surgerm. f, þ, χ/h, χ/hʷ) och
    *bʰ, *dʰ, *gʰ > ƀ, ð, ǥ
    5.2 *b, *d, *g > p(ʰ), t(ʰ), k(ʰ
    Isn't the suggestion that the relevant Pre-Germanic developments to turn Carpate into Harvaða went in effect after 700 bc, taking at least two generations to spread? K > X/H, P > F, T> being the relevant ones.

    The inscription of the Negau Helmet B shows both the K > H and the D > T shifts , but we do not have an exact dating as the oldest estimates place it in 350 bc and the youngest during the 2nd century b.c.

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  10. #156
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    Indeed Copper Axe!

    And language development is nothing 'independent' in that sense that it's separate 'in time and space'. No it's a reality connected with time and space and societal development.

    Connections and loanwords are of course easier in the context of closeness than for away connections (although of course not totally impossible).

    So Koch mades this visible with this:


    And:


    Beside that when Koch and other mentions Germanic began to differentiate somewhat from the other Northwest European Indo-European languages at 2000-1900 BC (that is an assumption of course we have no evidence!). We now no much more about the development in North Central Europe than 20 years ago! We now know that civilization at exactly that time got a push in especially Middle-Elbe Saale. See:https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Harald-Meller Not weird to assume that at that time and that space the language development got a push too. Perfectly related to Corded Ware and Beakers as Koch assumes.

    And the reverse: when the Germanic language development came essential from Scandinavia (starting around 2000-1900 BC). Which kind of language development occurred in North-Central Europe in casu Unetice? Big gap?

    Besides that the use of the word Germanic became in use only to describe of (mind you!) a subset of the Celts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germani_cisrhenani
    Some literati began to use it as a word for all tribes right of the Rhine. After the antique it became in disuse. Much later it was 'reinvented'.

    The core of the people that use "Germanic languages" like the 'Deutsch' or the 'Dutch' didn't use words to describe themselves that are derived from the word Germanic they used word derived from PIE *teuta https://www.etymonline.com/word/*teuta-

    So a supposed Germanic coherency or self awareness is more a modern thing than a thing of the past.....
    Last edited by Finn; 06-24-2021 at 06:42 AM.

  11. #157
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    Just a question ( I say a question, not a polemical trick): how can we be sure that the proto-Germanic adjective *walhaz has come from the latino-celtic ethnonym volcae, and not for example from a more ancient Celtic word (whatever it could have meant) from which this ethnonym would be derived? Anyway the assumption that this case, as any isolated loanword between Celtic and Germanic, is significant of a direct groups contact is enormous, being the long-lasting contacts by trade that occurred between (likely) pre-Germanic speaking Scandinavians and Celtic speaking people in 1) the Iberian zone (and SW France is one of the regions where lived tribes attached to the Volcae) 2) the British Isles 3) SE-Central Europe (where other Volcae-related tribes ruled on some regions known as important for metal trading). In short, the case of *Walhaz-Volcae is likely very obscure and difficult. All these questions of onomastics are actually very difficult, and I'm not willing to put my life in the hands of an obscure Dutch blogger, neither in those of a tradition of onomastics that so often has let pass very naive etymologies.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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  13. #158
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    Makes perfectly sense:
    Medieval loss of the Germanic people concept
    In the Greek-speaking eastern Roman empire which continued to exist during the Middle Ages, the concept of "Germanic" was also lost or distorted. As explained by Walter Pohl, the late Roman equation of the Franks with the Germani led there to such non-classical contrasts as the French (West Franks) being Germani and the Germans (East Franks) being Alamanni, or the Normans in Sicily being Franks, but the French being "Franks and also Germani". In the Strategikon of Maurice, written about 600, a contrast is made between three types of barbarian: Scythians, Slavs, and "blonde-haired" peoples such as the Franks and Langobards (Lombards) – apparently having no convenient name to cover them together.[54]

    Medieval writers in western Europe used Caesar's old geographical concept of Germania, which, like the new Frankish and clerical jurisdictions of their time, used the Rhine as a frontier marker, although they did not commonly refer to any contemporary Germani. For example, Louis the German (Ludovicus Germanicus) was named this way because he ruled east of the Rhine, and in contrast the kingdom west of the Rhine was still called Gallia (Gaul) in scholarly Latin.[55]

    Writers using Latin in West Germanic-speaking areas did recognize that those languages were related (Dutch, English, Lombardic, and German). To describe this fact they referred to "Teutonic" words and languages, seeing the nominative as a Latin translation of Theodiscus, which was a concept that West Germanic speakers used to refer to themselves. It is the source of the modern words "Dutch", German "Deutsch", and Italian "Tedesco". Romance language speakers and others such as the Welsh were contrasted using words based on another old word, Walhaz, the source of "Welsh", Wallach, Welsch, Walloon, etc., itself derived from the name of the Volcae, a Celtic group.[56] Only a small number of writers were influenced by Tacitus, whose work was known at Fulda Abbey, and few used terminology such as lingua Germanica instead of theudiscus sermo.[57]

    On the other hand, there were several more origin myths written after Jordanes (see above) which similarly connected some of the post Roman peoples to a common origin in Scandinavia. As pointed out by Walter Pohl, Paul the Deacon even implied that the Goths, like the Lombards, descended from "Germanic peoples", though it is unclear if they continued to be "Germanic" after leaving the north.[58] Frechulf of Lisieux observed that some of his contemporaries believed that the Goths might belong to the "nationes Theotistae", like the Franks, and that both the Franks and the Goths might have come from Scandinavia.[59] It is in this period, the 9th century Carolingian era, that scholars also first recorded speculation about relationships between Gothic and West Germanic languages. Smaragdus of Saint-Mihiel believed the Goths spoke a teodisca lingua like the Franks, and Walafrid Strabo, calling it a theotiscus sermo, was even aware of their Bible translation. However, though the similarities were noticed, Gothic would not have been intelligible to a West Germanic speaker.[60]

    The first detailed origins legend of the Anglo-Saxons was by Bede (died 735), and in his case he named the Angles and Saxons of Britain as peoples who once lived in Germania, like, he says, the Frisians, Rugians, Danes, Huns, Old Saxons (Antiqui Saxones) and the Bructeri. He even says that British people still call them, corruptly, "Garmani". As with Jordanes and the Gutones, there is other evidence, linguistic and archaeological, which is consistent with his scholarly account, although this does not prove that Bede's non-scholarly contemporaries had accurate knowledge of historical details.[61]

    In western Europe then, there was limited scholarly awareness of the Tacitean "Germanic peoples", and even their potential connection to the Goths, but much more common was adherence to Caesar's concept of the geographical meaning of Germania east of the Rhine, and a perception of similarities between some Germanic languages – though they were not given this name until much later.
    source:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German...people_concept

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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    Just a question ( I say a question, not a polemical trick): how can we be sure that the proto-Germanic adjective *walhaz has come from the latino-celtic ethnonym volcae, and not for example from a more ancient Celtic word (whatever it could have meant) from which this ethnonym would be derived? Anyway the assumption that this case, as any isolated loanword between Celtic and Germanic, is significant of a direct groups contact is enormous, being the long-lasting contacts by trade that occurred between (likely) pre-Germanic speaking Scandinavians and Celtic speaking people in 1) the Iberian zone (and SW France is one of the regions where lived tribes attached to the Volcae) 2) the British Isles 3) SE-Central Europe (where other Volcae-related tribes ruled on some regions known as important for metal trading). In short, the case of *Walhaz-Volcae is likely very obscure and difficult. All these questions of onomastics are actually very difficult, and I'm not willing to put my life in the hands of an obscure Dutch blogger, neither in those of a tradition of onomastics that so often has let pass very naive etymologies.
    Yep just like with that Cannabis thing You are absolutely right they are disputable and you can't rely on one word.

    But it can fit in a pattern though....

    And it's not without importance that the "Germanics" called themselves *teuta and the people sw of them *walhaz nothing celtic or germanic derived (in the sense of the word germanic and celtic).....
    Last edited by Finn; 06-24-2021 at 09:28 AM.

  15. #160
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    Who has some extra information? Pure curiosity!

    wiki:

    Romance language speakers and others such as the Welsh were contrasted using words based on another old word, Walhaz (Finn *Wolkoz derived), the source of "Welsh", Wallach, Welsch, Walloon, etc., itself derived from the name of the Volcae, a Celtic group.[56]

    *Walhaz is a reconstructed Proto-Germanic word meaning "Roman", "Romance-speaker", or "Celtic-speaker". The term was used by the ancient Germanic peoples to describe inhabitants of the former Western Roman Empire, who were largely romanised and spoke Latin or Celtic languages (cf. Valland in Old Norse). The adjectival form is attested in Old Norse valskr, meaning "French"; Old High German walhisk, meaning "Romance"; New High German welsch, used in Switzerland and South Tyrol for Romance speakers; Dutch Waals "Walloon"; Old English welisċ, wælisċ, wilisċ, meaning "Romano-British". The forms of these words imply that they are descended from a Proto-Germanic form *walhiska-.[1] It is attested in the Roman Iron Age from an inscription on one of the Tjurkö bracteates, where walhakurne "Roman/Gallic grain" is apparently a kenning for "gold" (referring to the bracteate itself).

    Welsh
    Etymology
    From Proto-Celtic *wolkos (compare Breton gwalc’h), of uncertain origin; possibly related to *ulkos (“bad, evil”), hinted by early Celtic farmers' hostility towards birds of prey. If so, cognate with Old Irish olc.[1]

    Reconstruction: Proto-Celtic/wolkos
    Proto-Celtic
    Etymology
    Of uncertain origin, possibly related to *ulkos (“bad, evil”), hinted by early Celtic farmers' hostility towards birds of prey. If so, cognate with Old Irish olc.[1]
    Most modern Celticists regard the tribal name Uolcae as being related to Welsh: gwalch (hawk); perhaps related at the Proto-Indo-European level to Latin falco (hawk). Compare the Gaulish personal name Catuuolcus to Welsh cadwalch 'hero', literally 'battle-hawk', though some prefer to translate Gaulish *uolco- as 'wolf' and, by semantic extension, 'errant warrior'.[2]
    Of uncertain origin, possibly related to *ulkos (“bad, evil”), hinted by early Celtic farmers' hostility towards birds of prey. If so, cognate with Old Irish olc.[1]
    lower saxon wiki (google translate and Finn):
    An ulk, olk, ollerke, oabeltje van Aulk is a dwarf or kobold from Lower Saxon mythology. The ulks are seen as ugly and evil and used as a child's fright. Ulk are known on both sides of the Dutch-German border (Groningen/Drenthe/Emsland) they live on hills.[1]
    Last edited by Finn; 06-24-2021 at 09:24 AM.

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