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Thread: The Harbour of the Old North

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    This inconsistent chatter gives me heartburn. I stop, I will let off steam on my punching bag.

    Wait a minute Angles, I guess Kallio formulates the solution very well with close reading: he mentions Jastorf besides ('not the only') the Scandic iron age culture(s), he even uses 'simultaneously'! So apart. So in this respect there is no need for Nordic Bronze > Jastorf. Different trajectory's so to say!

    Correct me if my close reading is wrong.
    Last edited by Finn; 06-18-2021 at 12:02 PM.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    This inconsistent chatter gives me heartburn. I stop, I will let off steam on my punching bag.
    Meanwhile somewhere in Le Normandy:


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  4. #103
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    doublure>>>>>>
    Last edited by Finn; 06-18-2021 at 01:04 PM.

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  6. #104
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    Angles:

    So more kinds of proto Germanic, one of the North Central Europe/ Jastorf and one or more in Scandinvia fully ok.

    But the key is:
    as a matter of fact the cultures go back to the Nordic Bronze Age
    Attachment 45217
    This statement (in casu yellow) lacks evidence.

    And it's wrong, see the statement of Jes Martens for example:

    Conclusion
    German scholars often count Jutland as a part of the Jastorf culture. While it could be justified for the southern and perhaps even the central parts of the peninsula (Becker’s zone B/C), it becomes less apprehensible as soon as we reach North Jutland. The Jastorf culture is mainly defined on the base of burial material. The predominant cremation pit burial custom of North Jutland is strongly deviating from the typical Jastorf urn burial. The Jastorf burials are usually gathered at large burial grounds (with up to several thousand graves) the typical burials of North Jutland are isolated or at minor cemeteries (less than 30 graves). The typical furnishing of a Jastorf grave consists throughout the Pre-Roman Iron Age of an urn, sometimes covered by a lid, more seldom an additional vessel, while dress equipment (pins, belt fittings) is relatively common. In North Jutland the typical grave furnishing of the Early Pre-Roman Iron Age is nothing or as little as possible, while during the late part this is inverted into as much as possible and as many functional types as possible. When to this is added a distinct and different pottery style, not much remains as common points. If North Jutland were included in the Jastorf culture, the effect would be that this notion was deprived of any meaning. North Jutland is better grouped among the other regional Nordic culture groups, as a culturally independent entity but with connections both to the Jastorf culture and to its eastern neighbours. Even Becker’s zone B/C – the Middle Jutland group lacks many of the typical Jastorf traits. During the Early Pre-Roman Iron Age burial grounds are small, during the later half of the period a few medium sized burial grounds are known (about a hundred graves) but still these are exceptions to the norm and do not compare to the large burial grounds of the Jastorf culture. The burials of the Early Pre-Roman Iron Age are relatively poor, and the emblematic Jastorf types are more often found as wet land deposits than in grave contexts. Actually this might at least partially explain the apparent poverty expressed in the burial custom. In Central, and especially in North Jutland things were not meant to end in graves. This seems to signalize that the group meant more than the individual in these regions. Thus even the Middle Jutland group does not seem to be fitting within the “Jastorf concept”. This can on the other hand be true of the South Jutland group which during the Early Pre-Roman Iron Age exhibit many of the typical Jastorf traits like vast burial grounds, the furnishing of the graves and even specific artefact types. What happens with this region at the transition to the Late Pre-Roman Iron Age is difficult to know for several reasons. For the first, the large Jastorf-like burial grounds break of during the Early part of this process (at the transition between Hingst Id and IIa) and after this point we have only few scattered graves; for the second, some of the most important material for the evaluation of this question still remains unpublished. But though the South Jutland group may be counted as a Jastorf group it still has it’s own character, as Neergaard put it, a more modest and functional style compared to that of the rich show- offs down south.
    As the supposed weather conditions in the premise of Manco, bad climate in Scandinavia, people going down to North Central Europe. Voila: Jastorf. Wrong.

    Mats Wridgen:
    The period of abrupt cooling starting about 850 BC is well documented in the Netherlands and has been demonstrated to have had a decisive influence on settlement and society there, especially for coastal settlements. Evidence that this cooling had any clear effect on society and settlement in Sweden, however, is lacking: neither the detailed climate reconstructions nor possible effects on society have yet been clarified for Sweden.
    Which kind of idiot goes in bad climate conditions to places where it's even worse....

    So you can push the bag on a hard way, make a lot of theatre, blame me for god knows what.....but that doesn't change the fact that for Nordic Bronze Age> Jastorf there is no evidence. Even if you declare Kallio holy, kiss his ring that's doesn't chance the facts. So the "matter of fact" of Kalio is in this respect NO fact.

    And if there is evidence show it!
    Last edited by Finn; 06-18-2021 at 03:10 PM.

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  8. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Angles:

    So more kinds of proto Germanic, one of the North Central Europe/ Jastorf and one or more in Scandinvia fully ok.

    But the key is:
    Attachment 45217
    This statement (in casu yellow) lacks evidence.

    And it's wrong, see the statement of Jes Martens for example:



    As the supposed weather conditions in the premise of Manco, bad climate in Scandinavia, people going down to North Central Europe. Voila: Jastorf. Wrong.

    Mats Wridgen:


    Which kind of idiot goes in bad climate conditions to places where it's even worse....

    So you can push the bag on a hard way, make a lot of theatre, blame me for god knows what.....but that doesn't change the fact that for Nordic Bronze Age> Jastorf there is no evidence. Even if you declare Kallio holy, kiss his ring that's doesn't chance the facts. So the "matter of fact" of Kalio is in this respect NO fact.

    And if there is evidence show it!
    Is it necessary for the NBA to have moved south from Sweden? It already included all of the Jutish peninsula and Northern Mecklenburg.
    Plus wouldn't your argument that Jastorf culture didn't include Scandinavia also not work for a Jastorf->Scandinavia migration?
    Last edited by Granary; 06-19-2021 at 06:02 AM.

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  10. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    I.e., something like the "Common slavic" scenario. Common slavic covered a massive area for quite some time (at least a century and probably longer) before splitting apart, for example, and W Germanic Christian terminology spread over that entire area even though the Slavics overlapped with Charlemagne and company only in the far west. Something indicative here is that the Celtic borrowings into proto-Germanic (e.g. rikas, King) which Mikko dated around 800BC got transmitted into Finnic as well, so a "Common Germanic" area could maybe be quite large, by analogy with the Slavic example.
    How many Celtic loanwords are there in proto-Germanic to begin with? My impression is that the number is frankly quite small(when I try to count from lists I don't even reach 50, adding even ones where the direction of loaning or whether the loaning was even from a third party is unclear).

    The biggest problem for this theory is that the loanwords in Finnic and Saami for some reason partook in the entire list of sound changes leading to proto-Germanic (super important for Angles' point of view), as opposed being loaned from some para-Germanic dialect that didn't share some of the changes more recently than some date. But I guess another way of interpreting this could be that the sound shifts in some cases may not refer to dialect changes in the Malaren area that spread out to say Denmark, but a sound change that took place in Denmark moving into the Malaren area? And the last proto-Germanic sound change actually took place earlier in Denmark but only got reflected in the Malaren area ~0AD. Just some thoughts.
    At the very least this shows that the coastal area of Sweden up to Uppsala was likely well and consistently well connected to Danish and Jutish region that any local innovation spread regularly northwards, including Celtic loanwords from farther south.

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  12. #107
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    How many Celtic loanwords are there in proto-Germanic to begin with? My impression is that the number is frankly quite small(when I try to count from lists I don't even reach 50, adding even ones where the direction of loaning or whether the loaning was even from a third party is unclear).

    Here you go:
    https://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kroch/co...celt-loans.pdf

    At the very least this shows that the coastal area of Sweden up to Uppsala was likely well and consistently well connected to Danish and Jutish region that any local innovation spread regularly northwards, including Celtic loanwords from farther south.
    At EBA there was a tremendous influence from the North Sea/ Sögel Wohlde region to Valsømagle (Danish Isles./Southern Scandinavia) region. This cultural influence most likely contained language influence too....
    Last edited by Finn; 06-19-2021 at 06:50 AM.

  13. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granary View Post
    Is it necessary for the NBA to have moved south from Sweden? It already included all of the Jutish peninsula and Northern Mecklenburg.
    Plus wouldn't your argument that Jastorf culture didn't include Scandinavia also not work for a Jastorf->Scandinavia migration?

    When Jastorf is a Nordic Bronze Age derivative than it's quite common sense that the influence went from North (Southern Scandinavia) to South (North Central Europe). In reality Jastorf influence went from South (North Central Europe) to North (Southern Scandinavia) were it went not above Southern Jutland.

    Besides that when Sweden was the heartland what kind of language did North Central Europe spoke before the arrival of Germanic from Sweden, Swahili?

    And what about the influence of Single Grave, usually seen as the Indo-European influence into Germanics (genetically) and Germanic (language). And the later on Bell Beaker influence (according to Davidski a Single Grave offshoot and I guess he is right)?

    When you place the heartland of Germanic unisono somewhere in Sweden you bypass the Single Grave and Bell Beaker influences. Ever heard of Single Grave and Bell Beaker Sweden?

    Let alone Celtic influence the contact zone between (pre and proto) Germanic and Celtic was in North Central Europe there they were neighbouring, Uppsala is not in the Celtic-Germanic contact zone....
    Last edited by Finn; 06-19-2021 at 07:01 AM.

  14. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    When Jastorf is a Nordic Bronze Age derivative than it's quite common sense that the influence went from North (Southern Scandinavia) to South (North Central Europe). In reality Jastorf influence went from South (North Central Europe) to North (Southern Scandinavia) were it went not above Southern Jutland.
    Ok, so what? There was still territorial overlap, is there anything that refutes the possibility that Southern Jutish, Mecklenburger and Lower Elbe populations had continuity from the NBA to Jastorf?
    We do know Jastorf expanded southwards at least so early territorial overlap was bigger still.

    Besides that when Sweden was the heartland what kind of language did North Central Europe spoke before the arrival of Germanic from Sweden, Swahili?
    The Lower Elbe and Baltic coast modern Germany was already connected to Denmark and Scandinavia before the climatic degradation.

    And what about the influence of Single Grave, usually seen as the Indo-European influence into Germans (genetically) and Germanic (language). And the later on Bell Beaker influence (according to Davidski a Single Grave offshoot and I guess he is right)?
    We are talking about the middle and late bronze age, why bring the EBA? I don't see why it matters.

    When you place the heartland of Germanic unisono somewhere in Sweden you bypass the Single Grave and Bell Beaker influences. Ever heard of Single Grave and Bell Beaker Sweden?
    Why? Even if this matters, you could still have Germanic enter Scandinavia from the south from Unetice and still have proto-Germanic spread from souther Sweden or Jutland.

    Let alone Celtic influence the contact zone between (pre and proto) Germanic and Celtic was in North Central Europe there they were neighbouring, Uppsala is not in the Celtic-Germanic contact zone....
    There are actually quite few Celtic loanwords anyway.
    Last edited by Granary; 06-19-2021 at 07:03 AM.

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  16. #110
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    Nils-Axel Mörner & Bob G. Lind , "Long-Distance Travel and Trading in the Bronze Age: The East Mediterranean-Scandinavia Case"

    Scandinavia and Central Europe suddenly stepped into the Bronze Age at about 1750 years BC. The bronze objects were imported from the Mediterranean area (Ling et al., 2014). At just the same time amber started to occur in masses in Mycenaean and Minoan graves (Figure 1). The provenience of that amber is shown to be the south Baltic coasts. This means that we have evidence of a simultaneous import/export exchange between Scandinavia and the Eastern Mediterranean region (Mörner & Lind, 2010). At the same time, pictures of huge ships started to be carved into the bedrock and into big blocks in Scandinavia.
    There are thousands of such rock carvings found and recorded. Throughout the Scandinavian Bronze Age, from 1750 to 500 BC, there is an evolutionary trend of those pictures recorded, which may even serve as chronological tool (Kaul, 2000; Ling, 2008). One of those ships is shown in Figure 1(C) (cf. Mörner & Lind, 2010).
    The ships look like nothing known in the local or regional shipbuilding tradition. They are very similar to ships of the same age occurring in the contemporaneous cultures in the Mediterranean, however (Mörner & Lind, 2008, 2010, 2013). Not only did these cultures have such ships, they also had an advanced knowledge of geography, the shape of the Earth and the motion of the Sun.
    Therefore, it seems logical to propose an integrated interpretation, viz. that people from the Mediterranean at about 1750 BC, in their excellent ships, reached all the way up to Scandinavia, introducing bronze tools to the region, exporting the valuable amber, and giving the local people reasons to start the new costume of creating rock-carvings of ships (Mörner & Lind, 2010, 2013).
    (...)
    In southeast Sweden, we are now able to identify signs and symbols of Mediterranean origin, besides, a central Sun cult and a phallus cult that seem to lead their origin from the Aegean and Near East.
    Conclusion: At EBA there was a tremendous influence from the Aegean region to Southern Scandinavia. This cultural influence most likely has contained language influence too....

    edit: I forgot to add this:
    Last edited by anglesqueville; 06-19-2021 at 07:16 AM.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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