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Thread: The Harbour of the Old North

  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    Nils-Axel Mörner & Bob G. Lind , "Long-Distance Travel and Trading in the Bronze Age: The East Mediterranean-Scandinavia Case"


    Conclusion: At EBA there was a tremendous influence from the Aegean region to Southern Scandinavia. This cultural influence most likely has contained language influence too....
    Yes and the ships sailed straight away from the Aegean sea to the Kattegat. Were they, as a kind of Vikings avant la lettre controlled the Swedish scene. Of course the Ageans brought in their language that is later known as Germanics.

    Got some clip from that time:


    Every German recognizes this immediately
    Last edited by Finn; 06-19-2021 at 11:30 AM.

  2. #112
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    Normandie Orkney Netherlands Friesland East Frisia Finland
    Diese neuen Ergebnisse (*) wurden in Mitteleuropa bisher wenig beachtet und rezipiert. Sie hätten zwar ausgezeichnet in das traditionelle Bild der mitteleuropäischen Germanistik gepaßt, das die Entstehung des Germanischen in die nordische Bronzezeit legte und in Skandinavien lokalisierte. Inzwischen war jedoch eine neue Lehre aufgekommen, nach der das Germanische ein erst recht spätes Phänomen und in Norddeutschland entstanden sei. Sprachliche Beweise für diese Auffassung gab es zwar kaum oder überhaupt keine, man verließ sich aber auf die Aussage der Archäologen, die jedoch nicht alleine - ohne Hilfe der historischen Sprachforschung - entscheiden können, wann eine neue Sprachepoche einsetzt.

    Jorma Koivulehto

    (*) The evidence of early and continuous linguistic influence from Germanic to Balto-Finnic with hundreds of loans and phonotactical changes.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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  4. #113
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    Ok, so what? There was still territorial overlap, is there anything that refutes the possibility that Southern Jutish, Mecklenburger and Lower Elbe populations had continuity from the NBA to Jastorf?
    We do know Jastorf expanded southwards at least so early territorial overlap was bigger still.
    No it's the other way around the old core region of Germanic was in in Saal-Mittelelbe. Knowledge about iron production went from the Southern part of Jastorf to the North not the other way around. Udolph (topology) and Euler (2009) place Ur Germanic in the southern parts of the Jastorf area (for the Bronze Age known as Unetice).


    The Lower Elbe and Baltic coast modern Germany was already connected to Denmark and Scandinavia before the climatic degradation.
    The climate degradation is attested around the North Sea as devastating, not in Sweden.


    We are talking about the middle and late bronze age, why bring the EBA? I don't see why it matters.
    EBA is the kick start of the Bronze Age, Sögel Wohlde people were the front runners in this respect, so of major importance also in linguistic sense.


    Why? Even if this matters, you could still have Germanic enter Scandinavia from the south from Unetice and still have proto-Germanic spread from souther Sweden or Jutland.
    Agree! Doesn't have to be unisono. There cane be a proto-Germanic sphere in Scandinavia and North-Central Europe, quit well indeed.

    There are actually quite few Celtic loanwords anyway.
    At least that we no of, but more than from other languages like Finnic.

  5. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    No it's the other way around the old core region of Germanic was in in Saal-Mittelelbe. Knowledge about iron production went from the Southern part of Jastorf to the North not the other way around. Udolph (topology) and Euler (2009) place Ur Germanic in the southern parts of the Jastorf area (for the Bronze Age known as Unetice).
    Where do you get this idea from?
    https://www.academia.edu/38659109/80...wischenbericht
    Ihr Kerngebiet
    umfasst nach gegenwärtiger Lehrmeinung
    Südjütland, Schleswig-Holstein, Nordniedersachsen, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, die Altmark und Westbrandenburg. Peripher liegen
    hingegen die so genannten „Jastorfgruppen“
    in Mittel- und Nordjütland, an der mittleren
    und unteren Oder, in Mitteldeutschland entlang der Mittelelbe und Saale, Elster und Elbe
    sowie in Nordböhmen. Die westliche Peripherie bilden West- und Mittelniedersachsen4
    .
    The climate degradation is attested around the North Sea as devastating, not in Sweden.
    The Nordic Bronze Age region still suffered a decline during this period, why do you think that's the case?


    EBA is the kick start of the Bronze Age, Sögel Wohlde people were the front runners in this respect, so of major importance also in linguistic sense.
    Again, I don't see how they are relevant, please show the causal link between what happened before 1800 BCE(Single Grave, Bell Beaker) and why that explains where proto-Germanic homeland was located around 500 BCE.

    Agree! Doesn't have to be unisono. There cane be a proto-Germanic sphere in Scandinavia and North-Central Europe, quit well indeed.
    But if this sphere extends time-wise into the Bronze age then it will ultimately be connected to the Nordic Bronze Age centred in Jutland, not the middle Elbe...

    At least that we no of, but more than from other languages like Finnic.
    Finnic was not in Southern Sweden so that area is safe too.
    Last edited by Granary; 06-19-2021 at 07:32 AM.

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  7. #115
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    I find the proposed unidirectional loanwords from Paleo to Proto-Germanic in Uralic languages quite the pickle when it seems like very quickly after Uralic and Germanic contacts occurred you had the prequel to the sack of Sigtuna.

    There are Tarand graves in Sweden and a nice distribution of Akozino axes. Also, plenty of N-L550, already present since the iron age.

    So Finnic was for sure spoken in Sweden during the early iron age and these people did not seem to be so beneath Germanic that they borrowed everything and Germanic borrowed zilch. Doesn't make sense to me.

    Also some of these proposed loanwords like rauta (not present in Germanic conspicuously) could easily be from other Indo-European languages, Balto-Slavic has a whole bunch of terms derived from *raudas.

    I think there are too many assumptions made on Germanic and Uralic contacts and interactions (like any contact during the bronze age), likely shaped by the events of the Viking age which we then apply back to iron age and bronze age (this didnt happen!!!) scenarios.
    Last edited by CopperAxe; 06-19-2021 at 09:39 AM.

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  9. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    I find the proposed unidirectional loanwords from Paleo to Proto-Germanic in Uralic languages quite the pickle when it seems like very quickly after Uralic and Germanic contacts occurred you had the prequel to the sack of Sigtuna.

    There are Tarand graves in Sweden and a nice distribution of Akozino axes. Also, plenty of N-L550, already present since the iron age.

    So Finnic was for sure spoken in Sweden during the early iron age and these people did not seem to be so beneath Germanic that they borrowed everything and Germanic borrowed zilch. Doesn't make sense to me.

    Also some of these proposed loanwords like rauta (not present in Germanic conspicuously) could easily be from other Indo-European languages, Balto-Slavic has a whole bunch of terms derived from *raudas.

    I think there are too many assumptions made on Germanic and Uralic contacts and interactions (like any contact during the bronze age), likely shaped by the events of the iron age which we then apply back to iron age and bronze age (this didnt happen!!!) scenarios.
    But the amount of Germanic loanwords seems pretty huge and the lack of Finnic loanwords maybe is explained through a quick assimilation of the Finnic communities which must have happened anyway given how much Germanic influence reach the other side of the Baltic in the meantime.
    Also Germanic gave a couple dozens words to Slavic but I'm not sure how many went in the other direction.

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  11. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granary View Post
    But the amount of Germanic loanwords seems pretty huge and the lack of Finnic loanwords maybe is explained through a quick assimilation of the Finnic communities which must have happened anyway given how much Germanic influence reach the other side of the Baltic in the meantime.
    Also Germanic gave a couple dozens words to Slavic but I'm not sure how many went in the other direction.
    The vast majority of "the old ones" seem solidly dated to Proto-Germanic > NW Germanic. The ones proposed prior to those stages are in my opinion on much more shaky grounds. Like rauta - which has Balto-Slavic cognates and doesnt really appear in any Germanic language as a metallurgical term except an Old Norse word for ore. Why immediately assume a Germanic origin when you had plenty of other Indo-European candidates around, especially for a word that is quite pan-IE?

    How does that influence from Proto-Germanic times onwards point to a Germanic development in Sweden? No one is disputing that Proto-Germanic had a presence in Sweden.

    I'd say most of us, Finn included, wouldnt argue against a spread of pre-Germanic or Para-Germanic languages during the BA/EIA with a later linguistic expansion of "true Germanic" somewhere within the regions of those related languages. (Bringing Celtic with them).

    How come Finnic warriors left no substrate in Sweden, but Swedish warriors landed, shouted and resulted in more than 10% of Finnic vocabulary coming from Germanic? If they were bringing their own burial traditions with them, I'm going to assume they didn't just forget their language and became Germanic speaking the moment they reached Stockholm.

    Simple solution would be that the Finnics in Sweden were assimilated by incoming Germanic languages from the south, bringing Celtic words with them that were spoken all the way up to the polar circle. You can find these loanwords in Finnic languages even, mediated through these same Proto-Germanic speakers.

    Whatever language was spoken in LBA/EIA Sweden, surely had to have some form of Uralic influence. Yet Proto-Germanic doesn't and does have Celtic influence.
    Last edited by CopperAxe; 06-19-2021 at 08:15 AM.

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  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    I'd say most of us, Finn included, wouldnt argue against a spread of pre-Germanic or Para-Germanic languages during the BA/EIA with a later linguistic expansion of "true Germanic" somewhere within the regions of those related languages. (Bringing Celtic with them).
    I don't know, Finn seem to pushing Udolph's Middle Elbe theory pretty hard and the Middle Elbe is quite distant from Scandinavia and the nautical rich vocabulary of proto-Germanic.

    How come Finnic warriors left no substrate in Sweden, but Swedish warriors landed, shouted and resulted in more than 10% of Finnic vocabulary coming from Germanic? If they were bringing their own burial traditions with them, I'm going to assume they didn't just forget their language and became Germanic speaking the moment they reached Stockholm.

    Simple solution would be that the Finnics in Sweden were assimilated by incoming Germanic languages from the south, bringing Celtic words with them that were spoken all the way up to the polar circle. You can find these loanwords in Finnic languages even, mediated through these same Proto-Germanic speakers.
    Well this can happen with an homeland anywhere from Scania to the Middle Elbe so it doesn't help much, also I'm not so sure how big the local linguistic impact of Finnic would have actually been, is there any trace left in the hydronyms or toponyms? I can agree with the idea that a new influx of iron-working Southern Scandinavians could have expunged any evident Finnic influence but at the same time I'm not sure we can talk about a distinct Finnic communities centuries after those Axes and graves were made. How much Finnic admixture was even left in this region to this day?

    Whatever language was spoken in LBA/EIA Sweden, surely had to have some form of Uralic influence. Yet Proto-Germanic doesn't and does have Celtic influence.
    Did those Tarand graves and axes really extend beyond Svealand?

  14. #119
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    Where do you get this idea from?
    Sorry only in German:
    https://refubium.fu-berlin.de/bitstr...B04?sequence=1
    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisenv...i_den_Germanen
    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rennöf...emz_und_Vietow


    The Nordic Bronze Age region still suffered a decline during this period, why do you think that's the case?
    Mats Wridgen:
    The period of abrupt cooling starting about 850 BC is well documented in the Netherlands and has been demonstrated to have had a decisive influence on settlement and society there, especially for coastal settlements. Evidence that this cooling had any clear effect on society and settlement in Sweden, however, is lacking: neither the detailed climate reconstructions nor possible effects on society have yet been clarified for Sweden.
    So why move from Sweden to the North Sea coast when the conditions there are even more (attested!) miserable.



    Again, I don't see how they are relevant, please show the causal link between what happened before 1800 BCE (Single Grave, Bell Beaker) and why that explains where proto-Germanic homeland was located around 500 BCE.
    Koch 2020
    See Beaker phenomenon (is not in Sweden)
    See North West Indo European (connected with Celtic and Italic)
    See Bronze Age network, the kickstart of Nordic Bronze Age is due to Sögel Wohlde (warriors). See the works of Vandkilde and Bergerbrant.

    You see up until 500 BC there were blurred lines between proto Celtic and proto Germanic.


    And Koch gives an add were these contactzone between Celtic and Germanic was and that was NOT in southern Scandinavia.


    But if this sphere extends time-wise into the Bronze age then it will ultimately be connected to the Nordic Bronze Age centred in Jutland, not the middle Elbe...
    Koch and others mention that pre-Germanic began to differentiate about 2000-1900 BC. That occurred around Mittel-Elbe-Saale aka Unetice. Confirmed by Udolph and Euler. Euler: 'the makers of the Nebra Sky Disk were the first Ur-germanic speakers'.

    Harald Meller has stated that Unetice is the ultimate blend of Single Grave and Bell Beaker cultures.

    Unetice has an offshoot in the form of Sögel-Wohlde around the North Sea, the same swords that were found along the Nebra Sky Disk we also see along the North Sea. Sögel-Wohlde (1800-1600 BC) looked like Uneticians (clothes), they had graves like Uneticians not weird to assume they spoke like Uneticians.

    Sögel-Wohlde, dots, with center in Schleswig, in the right beneath corner you see the dot (=Nebra Sky Disk found).
    [/QUOTE]


    Finnic was not in Southern Sweden so that area is safe too.
    Safe for what?
    Last edited by Finn; 06-19-2021 at 09:04 AM.

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granary View Post
    I don't know, Finn seem to pushing Udolph's Middle Elbe theory pretty hard and the Middle Elbe is quite distant from Scandinavia and the nautical rich vocabulary of proto-Germanic.
    You can walk from the middle Elbe in a straight line and reach the Baltic coast within 24 hours. How long would that take with a horse, half a day? Neverminding that the Elbe is a river which ends in the North Sea with various smaller streams that lead to the Baltic coast. It is very much a nautical region actually.

    Here is what Finn actually proposes (northerners can be hard to understand sometimes ^_^):

    *Single grave migration from the Saale region to the northwest. Migrations that seem heavily based on the directions of rivers. SGC > BB results in a spread of related Centum IE languages ancestral to Germanic, Italic, Celtic, and probably a bucnh of others like Lusitanian etc.

    *Bronze age develops in Central Europe, and from the Unetice culture there is an influence coupled with migrations going towards northern Germany, Southern Denmark, Eastern Netherlands. This then may have brought an ancestral-to-Germanic language from the Saale region further up north (I dont buy this part). Rivers once again being important here.

    *Bronze age develops in Scandinavia, primarily due to these southern populations of Denmark and Northern Germany which spread their technically-not-germanic-yet language into various regions (Sweden, Norway, Baltic coast etc).

    *With new developments a similar pattern occured with the iron age Jastorf people - unequivocally Proto-Germanic speakers who then spread their very much Germanic language into various regions, mostly speaking closely related languages.

    Go look through the threads, this is his narrative. He even flat out said "Germanic in Sweden by 500 bc is no issue". I could quote him but I'm too lazy to look it up.

    The reason why Uldoph's toponymy is mentioned all the time by Finn, is that if you hold the arguments to be true it is incredibly hard to argue that the Germanic peoples which lived there were the result of recent migrants coming from the far north. And this is already getting dangerously close to the first historical mentions we have of Germanic peoples. Personally I disagree with Udolph's assesments as I think he puts the Germanic people too far south, but he's not that far off. A one day journey pretty much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Granary View Post
    Well this can happen with an homeland anywhere from Scania to the Middle Elbe so it doesn't help much, also I'm not so sure how big the local linguistic impact of Finnic would have actually been, is there any trace left in the hydronyms or toponyms? I can agree with the idea that a new influx of iron-working Southern Scandinavians could have expunged any evident Finnic influence but at the same time I'm not sure we can talk about a distinct Finnic communities centuries after those Axes and graves were made. How much Finnic admixture was even left in this region to this day?
    yeah I don't think there were any Finnic migrations towards the Elbe in the iron age, so I'm not sure how that could happen there. What could happen around the Elbe is Celtic influence, which lo and behold we do find in Germanic languages, and in Uralic languages mediated through Germanic languages.

    The point in my mind is that these axes and graves show up pretty much exactly when Pre-Proto-Germanic was turining into Proto-Germanic, so if Proto-Germanic developed in those regions where Finnic people migrated to or the regions adjacent to Finnic presence, the lack of Finnic influence in Germanic is rather peculiar given that we do know that the movements were not nearly as unidirectional as the language shows. It seems that the Finnic peoples were bursting onto the scene at that moment, recently arriving in the Baltic, taking over preceding communities, spreading into Sweden etc. They were making iron themselves pretty much as soon as Germanic people did and technologically seemed quite capable too.

    There was Finnic admixture back then, and today. You can see where Swedes plot in comparison to other Germanics and Uralic people on the G25 PCA pretty easily. Then we have historical examples with the Wielbark samples having a Balto-Finnic pull, as did samples from iron age Sweden, where we also have found Finnic paternal lineages. And this pull is not shared between all Germanic peoples, including those that theoretically should have a hefty share of Proto-Germanic related ancestry.

    Did those Tarand graves and axes really extend beyond Svealand?[/QUOTE]

    Axes? Yes. Graves? Not sure.

    If Svaeland is where Uralic peoples and influence arrived, then it should also be the close to the region from where Germanic departed to Estonia/Finland no? That is if Proto-Germanic developed in Sweden.

    Sweden then suffered serious harm,
    From the Estonians, causing great alarm.
    They sailed into Lake Mälar from the sea,
    Whether calm or stormy it might be,
    Secretly within the Svealand isles
    In stealthily advancing files.
    Once their minds to the idea did turn,
    That they the town of Sigtuna should burn,
    And so thoroughly they put it to the flame,
    That it since then has never been the same.
    There Archbishop Jon was killed,
    A deed that many a heathen thrilled
    Last edited by CopperAxe; 06-19-2021 at 09:18 AM.

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