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Thread: The Harbour of the Old North

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    Because II and balto-slavs are very similar languages. That is why Lithuanian is more similar to sanskrit than to eastern germanic languages for example. Satemization could not have happened indipendently in south asia and in the eastern baltic. It is matter of common sense since
    these two groups were linked with the CWC and
    were paternally derived under R1aM 417.
    Proto-Indo-Iranian is conservative in an "original IE" sense as they broke away in the 3rd millenium b.c. Vedic Sanskrit captured most of that essence due to it's relative conservativeness.

    Baltic languages likewise are considered one of the most conservative IE languages. If you take away the satemization the similarities would still be there actually - as the linguistic similarities extend far beyond satemization and are reflected in the mythologies for example.

    Satemization could easily ocurred independently or due to later influences from other groups, some linguists argue for that to have taken place amongst the Pre-Balto-Slavic languages.

    There are BS words that escaped satemization and I've seen at least one hydronym from the Baltic region shared here which was pretty Centum.

    You can assume a satem stage for Proto-Balto-Slavic in the mid 2nd millenium b.c and one for proto-Indo-Iranian in the late third millenium b.c, but thats about it really. What do early German, Baltic, Finnish, Swedish, Norwegian Corded Ware populations have to do with this?

    M417 is about as old as Proto-Indo-European itself, Z645 is as old as late PIE. why should that paternal lineage indicate an "Indo-Slavic" character of populations which had gone their own way since 3000 bc?

    Does Thracian come from Indo-Slavic R1a-M417?

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  3. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    All the IE languages with the notable exception of anatolian ones are from Yamnaya to begin with.
    CWC is basically Yamnaya + Globular Amphora and unless someone pushes the case of GAC being the source of IE the language of the CWC comes from Yamnaya too.
    Personally, I would use Yamnaya-related + Globular Amphora, seeing Sredny Stog as a direct predecessor, in any case, the specific details about the origins of CWC needs more clear ancient samples.

    But the CWC horizon is strongly tied with the Indo-Slavonic world so it is very likely that CWC spoke a language already satemized and probably very close to modern baltic languages. This of course could be the result of the strong GAC substrate shared by all the CWC and derived cultures.
    I see satemization as having occurred only in the eastern-most parts of CWC, and obviously it occurred when the ancestor of Indo-Iranian still was on the steppes; it is virtually complete in Indo-Iranian (except in the sequence /kr/ if a back vowel follows), but becomes more and more incomplete going west (it did not affect several sequences of /kr/, /kl(+back vowel)/, /kn/ etc. in Balto-Slavic) (I can talk about that for hours, let's not do that here ); most of the CWC world, from Germany east up to the Baltic area, very likely non-satemized dialects were spoken; I see Balto-Slavic as having spread from around Belarus, replacing such CWC dialects in the Baltic, of which a few "centum" forms remain as a substrate in Baltic.

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  5. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pylsteen View Post
    Personally, I would use Yamnaya-related + Globular Amphora, seeing Sredny Stog as a direct predecessor, in any case, the specific details about the origins of CWC needs more clear ancient samples.



    I see satemization as having occurred only in the eastern-most parts of CWC, and obviously it occurred when the ancestor of Indo-Iranian still was on the steppes; it is virtually complete in Indo-Iranian (except in the sequence /kr/ if a back vowel follows), but becomes more and more incomplete going west (it did not affect several sequences of /kr/, /kl(+back vowel)/, /kn/ etc. in Balto-Slavic) (I can talk about that for hours, let's not do that here ); most of the CWC world, from Germany east up to the Baltic area, very likely non-satemized dialects were spoken; I see Balto-Slavic as having spread from around Belarus, replacing such CWC dialects in the Baltic, of which a few "centum" forms remain as a substrate in Baltic.
    The biggest obstacle to this thesis of the "satemization only in the east" is the hybrid nature of germanic itself. Germanic is mix of centum and satem . The lautverschreibunb being an incoative step to satemization. That means that in the nordic bronze age at least a satem language was spoken otherwise germanic would be a full fledged centum language. And balto-slavs while possibly from a more eastern source were nowhere in sight in Scandinavia or northern Gremany at the time.

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  7. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    The biggest obstacle to this thesis of the "satemization only in the east" is the hybrid nature of germanic itself. Germanic is mix of centum and satem . The lautverschreibunb being an incoative step to satemization. That means that in the nordic bronze age at least a satem language was spoken otherwise germanic would be a full fledged centum language. And balto-slavs while possibly from a more eastern source were nowhere in sight in Scandinavia or northern Gremany at the time.
    There is nothing of the proces of satemization in (pre-)proto-Germanic. The chain shift in Germanic plosives is something different than the shift of palatovelars toward sibilants.

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  9. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    All the IE languages with the notable exception of anatolian ones are from Yamnaya to begin with.
    Slightly off-topic, but how are Anatolian IE languages not from Yamnaya? And how did you reach that conclusion? I might be confused, but I though the Yamnaya were the first speakers of what we call proto-Indo-European?

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  11. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by bovefex View Post
    Slightly off-topic, but how are Anatolian IE languages not from Yamnaya? And how did you reach that conclusion? I might be confused, but I though the Yamnaya were the first speakers of what we call proto-Indo-European?
    No, all the IE languages were "inside" the Sredni Stog horizon. The anatolian languages split off with the first incursion/movement from the Dneper to the lower Danube ( Suvorovo/Novodanilovka ). The Smydovo sample if confirmed would be pivotal. Than they moved down to balkans and further to anatolia were an increase of the euro-hunter gather component is found among the early Bronze age Kumtepe sample as per the last greek paper IIRC. It looks like Cernavoda was the culture were proto-anatolians coalesced.So Yamnaya harbored all IE languages sans anatolian ones.
    Last edited by etrusco; 06-25-2021 at 10:51 AM.

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  13. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    No, all the IE languages were "inside" the Sredni Stog horizon. The anatolian languages split off with the first incursion/movement from the Dneper to the lower Danube ( Suvorovo/Novodanilovka ). The Smydovo sample if confirmed would be pivotal. Than they moved down to balkans and further to anatolia were an increase of the euro-hunter gather component is found among the early Bronze age Kumtepe sample as per the last greek paper IIRC. It looks like Cernavoda was the culture were proto-anatolians coalesced.So Yamnaya harbored all IE languages sans anatolian ones.
    I see, thank you very much. Do we know when the last Greek paper's samples are going to get published? Also, with euro-hunter gatherer, do you mean Eastern- or Western Hunter Gatherer?

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  15. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    No, all the IE languages were "inside" the Sredni Stog horizon. The anatolian languages split off with the first incursion/movement from the Dneper to the lower Danube ( Suvorovo/Novodanilovka ). The Smydovo sample if confirmed would be pivotal. Than they moved down to balkans and further to anatolia were an increase of the euro-hunter gather component is found among the early Bronze age Kumtepe sample as per the last greek paper IIRC. It looks like Cernavoda was the culture were proto-anatolians coalesced.So Yamnaya harbored all IE languages sans anatolian ones.
    In fact it is pretty much stunning that nobody is commenting on the Kumtepe smoking gun of the potential arrival of Proto-anatolian/Hittite in Anatolia.

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  17. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by bovefex View Post
    Slightly off-topic, but how are Anatolian IE languages not from Yamnaya? And how did you reach that conclusion? I might be confused, but I though the Yamnaya were the first speakers of what we call proto-Indo-European?
    In the explanations given by people such as David W. Anthony and J.P Mallory the timeframe of the Yamnaya horizon only represents the Late PIE stage - with Anatolian already having diverged centuries prior and Pre-Tocharian just prior to it. This isn't just Etrusco's conclusion, it is practically the consensus.

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  19. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by bovefex View Post
    I see, thank you very much. Do we know when the last Greek paper's samples are going to get published? Also, with euro-hunter gatherer, do you mean Eastern- or Western Hunter Gatherer?
    a combination of the two. But likely with more EHG than WHG. The paper stunned me because in the early bronze age balkans ( and Anatolia) they did not find the "classical" steppe ancestry presence ( EHG+CHG) but only the euro HG one.
    It stunned me not because I did not expect that, but because I had predicted that.


    ukraine-samara-mesolithic-neolithic-evolution.png
    Last edited by etrusco; 06-25-2021 at 11:02 AM.

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