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Thread: The Harbour of the Old North

  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    Engedal:




    I'm awaiting the book written by Kristiansen and Larsson (2005) ("The Rise of Bronze Age Society: Travels, Transmissions and Transformations") and another, written by Bozena Webart ("Cultural Interactions in Europe and the Eastern Mediterranean During the Bronze Age 3000-500 Bc"). I'm very curious to see what these authors suggest to explain how the NBA started its existence, literally under the form of a Mycenean-Minoean copy in the North. Engedal's model, while integrating the possibility of Mycenean traders (as far as the Gulf of Lyon, but if I didn't miss something, not as far as the Swedish coasts) is far more complex than the option defended by Mörner and Lind (who imagine the landing of Mycecean ships in Swedish harbours-"entrepôts" like Pile). Engedal writes:
    "In light of these new networks north of the Alps, Mycenaeans established a colony at Monkodonja in the inner Adriatic, and from here they launched expeditions across the Alps possibly in attempts to intercept the long and winding routes and to bypass the Alpine middle-men. In the northern end, groups in Scania-Zealand and Elbe-Kiel Bay organized access to northern furs, as well as combined raiding-trading expeditions to the heart of the continent. From this scene arose sites like Bernstorf and Nitriansky Hradok. In this way Nordic groups and Mycenaeans came to meet face-to-face and in some cases bypassed much of Central Europe." Another question that bothers me is that of a highly probable link between Swedish rock art and the carvings of Val Camonica. I'm tempted to think that Nordic carvers must have seen those ones, and therefore must have been there. A lot of questions for a professional non-historian like me. Feel free to react to the quote from Engedal (I highlighted the parts devoted to the issue of the Beginnings).
    This suggestion, of Myceneans reaching Northern Europe, is incredibly surprising to me--there's still doubt about how far Phoenicians were able to reach, that they reached Britain was something that took a lot of proving, and even then some disbelieve... Now we have an even earlier people reaching all the way to Scandinavia! How is this theory received elsewhere? Is it considered a stretch?
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    " A Basal Eurasian and an Aurignacian walk into a bar... "

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  3. #142
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    To my knowledge (but my archaeological culture is modest), this idea has only been defended by Mörner and Lind (Mörner, N.-A., & Lind, BG (2015). Long-Distance Travel and Trading in the Bronze Age: The East Mediterranean-Scandinavian ca. Archaeological Discovery, 3, 129-139.
    https://doi.org/10.4236/ad.2015.34012). When I read their text for the first time, I laughed. On reflection, and after having read quite a bit, I think that the Mycenaeans did indeed have the technical capacity to reach Sweden, by coastal navigation, and perhaps by wintering somewhere on the Atlantic coast of Spain. But from there to establish a regular trade route by sea there is a chasm. I believe we are dealing with an attempt to provide a simple explanation for a complex, and truly dizzying, phenomenon. Because the quasi-Mycenaean character of the society described in the Swedish rock carvings is more than incontestable, it is astounding. I find it difficult to imagine that simple commercial relations, even prolonged over such a long period, suffice to explain the transfer of a Weltanschauung (the solar cult, the relation of the visible world to the invisible one and the primary role of water in this report, without counting the taurine figure too, and the relationship to the human body, and so many other things, a whole ontology, in fact, there are entire libraries on all that).
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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  5. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMcB View Post
    This may be of interest here:

    Shifting networks and mixing metals: Changing metal trade routes to Scandinavia correlate with Neolithic and Bronze Age transformations

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post780332
    Important text, thanks.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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  7. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    To my knowledge (but my archaeological culture is modest), this idea has only been defended by Mörner and Lind (Mörner, N.-A., & Lind, BG (2015).
    Bob G. Lind is your man if you're interested in homeopathy and the extraterrestrial forces behind crop circles, in addition to "revolutionary" archaeological and historical theories.

    Nils-Axel Mörner has been honoured with an English language Wikipedia page.

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  9. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    To my knowledge (but my archaeological culture is modest), this idea has only been defended by Mörner and Lind (Mörner, N.-A., & Lind, BG (2015). Long-Distance Travel and Trading in the Bronze Age: The East Mediterranean-Scandinavian ca. Archaeological Discovery, 3, 129-139.
    https://doi.org/10.4236/ad.2015.34012). When I read their text for the first time, I laughed. On reflection, and after having read quite a bit, I think that the Mycenaeans did indeed have the technical capacity to reach Sweden, by coastal navigation, and perhaps by wintering somewhere on the Atlantic coast of Spain. But from there to establish a regular trade route by sea there is a chasm. I believe we are dealing with an attempt to provide a simple explanation for a complex, and truly dizzying, phenomenon. Because the quasi-Mycenaean character of the society described in the Swedish rock carvings is more than incontestable, it is astounding. I find it difficult to imagine that simple commercial relations, even prolonged over such a long period, suffice to explain the transfer of a Weltanschauung (the solar cult, the relation of the visible world to the invisible one and the primary role of water in this report, without counting the taurine figure too, and the relationship to the human body, and so many other things, a whole ontology, in fact, there are entire libraries on all that).
    So it seems this "Scandinavian-Mycenaean" thing is not a new observation, Kristian Kristiansen says the same in his older book on the European BA. Question:

    Also other facts indicate an active travel and trading in the Bronze Age. This is the case with “the boy with
    the amber necklace”, buried at Boscombe Down, 5 km SE of Stonehenge, and dated at 1550 BC (Evans et al.,
    2006; Evans, 2010). The isotopic composition of his milk teeth is indicative of a childhood in the Mediterranean.
    The 90 amber beads in his necklace have a provenance from the south Baltic coasts. This provides evidence of
    long-distance migration and trading between the East Mediterranean and Britain as well as between Britain and
    Scandinavia (Mörner & Lind, 2010).
    Has this person been sequenced?

    Also quotes like this:

    There is also a delta sign interpreted as a Baal-symbol (like the one in the Kivik grave). Besides, one of the
    sight-stones has been cut in conic or delta shape.
    Also a serpent and some fishes that might have a Mediterranean origin are cut into the blocks.
    ... ... This stuff seems to grade over imperceptibly to the lunatic fringe e.g. here, but I suppose thats the natural course for speculative explanations--nevertheless the situation demands speculation for sure. Some aDNA may help here!
    Last edited by Ryukendo; 06-23-2021 at 12:14 AM.
    Quoted from this Forum:

    "Which superman haplogroup is the toughest - R1a or R1b? And which SNP mutation spoke Indo-European first? There's only one way for us to find out ... fight!"

    " A Basal Eurasian and an Aurignacian walk into a bar... "

    " No, you are in the wrong... I really hope that you are not jumping on my thread with intent to harass me, just like other "receiving comitee", that unites in classic bullying unity, which makes me sad about such people, deprived of love etc.... "

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  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angantyr View Post
    Bob G. Lind is your man if you're interested in homeopathy and the extraterrestrial forces behind crop circles, in addition to "revolutionary" archaeological and historical theories.

    Nils-Axel Mörner has been honoured with an English language Wikipedia page.
    Oh no
    Quoted from this Forum:

    "Which superman haplogroup is the toughest - R1a or R1b? And which SNP mutation spoke Indo-European first? There's only one way for us to find out ... fight!"

    " A Basal Eurasian and an Aurignacian walk into a bar... "

    " No, you are in the wrong... I really hope that you are not jumping on my thread with intent to harass me, just like other "receiving comitee", that unites in classic bullying unity, which makes me sad about such people, deprived of love etc.... "

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  13. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMcB View Post
    This may be of interest here:

    Shifting networks and mixing metals: Changing metal trade routes to Scandinavia correlate with Neolithic and Bronze Age transformations

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post780332
    Thanks JmcB it's in line with previous research of VandKilde, nice quote:

    Halfway between southern Scandinavia and the Carpathian–Transdanubian crossroads, the Nebra
    hoard, with its twin sets of Hajdu´sa´mson-derived weaponry made of Mitterberg copper and
    perhaps even tin from Cornwall [40,41], marks the place where the eastern route branched in
    two. One of these branches was a westerly itinerary along the River Elbe to the Sögel-Wohlde
    region of north-west Europe, while a north-easterly and similarly riverine itinerary headed
    towards the Baltic Sea, crossing over to the Danish isles and Scania. In Scandinavia, these
    changes concurred with formation of a new social order, identified by an emblematic style
    among prominent warriors in the incipient NBA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angantyr View Post
    Bob G. Lind is your man if you're interested in homeopathy and the extraterrestrial forces behind crop circles, in addition to "revolutionary" archaeological and historical theories.

    Nils-Axel Mörner has been honoured with an English language Wikipedia page.
    For the record, I suspected it a little, their paper gives off a sensational amateurish smell, as much to say that it smells bad. That said, the NBA-Mycenae link was not invented by them. I would be interested in what you know and think about what Engedal says about a Mycenaean colony (or trading post rather) in Monkodonja. Is this an idea of Engedal, or has it been championed by others?

    edit: The "Cambridge Prehistory of the Bronze and Iron Age prehistory" expresses rather sceptical views about Monkodonja as a Mycenean colony (I don't possess this book and could only read a few pages from Google Books). What do the archaeological geeks know about this question?
    Last edited by anglesqueville; 06-23-2021 at 08:15 AM.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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  17. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    So it seems this "Scandinavian-Mycenaean" thing is not a new observation, Kristian Kristiansen says the same in his older book on the European BA. Question:



    Has this person been sequenced?

    Also quotes like this:



    ... ... This stuff seems to grade over imperceptibly to the lunatic fringe e.g. here, but I suppose thats the natural course for speculative explanations--nevertheless the situation demands speculation for sure. Some aDNA may help here!
    Fascinating. I don't know whether we have DNA from the Boscombe boy. The Minoan inscription in Norway is new to me.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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  19. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Valter Lang didn't use the word "Viking", I did, and used it as a loose term for a people who were socially stratified and whose elites could marshal manpower and personnel for seafaring, long distance trade, and settlement, perhaps this is confusing; I apologize if thats the case. Valter talked about hillfort and Tarand Grave people as having the social organisation that they did because there was an association between metalworking and hillforts, basically all metal in the Baltics originated in Scandinavia and some of the metal was exported back into Scandinavia (IIRC a form of ingot of Baltic origin was found quite frequently there), which is a little strange if all the trade was done by the pre/para-Germanics and none by the Finnics. This tells us forts (social stratification) + metallurgy + some seafaring and trade existed in that society. The toehold of Tarand Graves and Akozino-Malar Axes in the Malaren area may be compatible with this kind of social account as well.

    I wasn't talking about you there, or the descriptions of early Finnic societies by you or Lang. in fact, I didn't even think of your comment .
    What I meant was that in the viking age, most of what we know contacts/influences/raids/migrations, or simply folks getting into a boat and crossing the sea, were fairly unidirectional between the inhabitants of Scandinavia and the East Baltics.

    I think this is (subconsciously) also projected on the pre-roman iron age, and the bronze age even. Those cist graves in the Baltics had to be made by Scandinavian migrants after all. But I really see no reason to position that Finnic people would have been so significantly on the receiving end of Paleo or Pre-Proto-Germanic influences, and had no influences on Pre-Proto-Germanic if Proto-Germanic developed amongst a small core of people in Sweden, for the reasons I pointed out.

    The unidirectional character was often explained by the technological/societal superiority Germanic had to Uralic or whatever, similar explanations were given for the total lack of Uralic influence in Indo-Iranian, but I don't think it holds up, at least not for the LBA to Pre-RIA transition. The Finns were new on the block, were having significant expansions, and even brought their traditions across the sea. Iron smelting does not really show up significantly later (any chance they could've showed up on the baltic shores already aware of iron metallurgy, considering the Urals was already iron age?) in Estonia than it does in Scandinavia either as far as I know.

    So all things considered the initial contacts between people of eastern Sweden and the Finnic peoples of the East Baltics in my eyes look like contacts between two sides that were close to equal in many ways. If those people were the linguistic forebearers of the Suebi, Goths, Cimbri, Franks etc. then I think that should be reflected in their language. But it is not, therefore adding to my suspicions that Proto-Germanic developed there.

    Celtic and Roman influences from the south from 500 bc onwards could be exactly the push that leads to a demographic/technological/societal edge which causes such an unidirectional character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    If you look at Mikko Heikkila's stratification (his list in pg 98) the last pGermanic sound change didn't take place until the ~0s AD, which is far too late for a lot of the Germanic borrowing, in fact the name of the Carpathians actually underwent pGermanic sound shift (k --> h) in some Germanic languages telling us some of the pGermanic changes didn't expand completely yet when the East Germanics reached the Carpathians(!). Also, because there are a very large number of sound changes on the path to Germanic, there are many loanwords which share in a large number but not all of the Germanic sound changes, telling us the contact was with some kind of pre-Germanic dialect for sure and not from some other process. Mikko lists (non-exhaustively) loanwords borrowed at each stage of sound change in pre-Germanic into Finnic and can find multiple for each stage. Furthermore the pre-Roman Iron Age is from ~500BC on and we already have Finnic-looking genomes from Estonia that are likely older than that, so contact starting from the Bronze Age is super likely, just late Bronze Age right before the pre-Roman Iron Age perhaps.
    In some areas of the Netherlands you can walk from a spot that was firmly classified as iron age in 700 bc, to one that was classified bronze age by 550 bc within your lunch break. All you have to do is to walk over a bridge. Metal age classifications can get a little funky like that.

    You're easily one of the smartest people here, so I know for sure that you know that when I say "bronze age contacts didnt happen", I'm not talking about the last slither of bronze age classifications, when the majority of Europe (like the Volga-Ural for example) was already in the iron age but the 1700 to 800 bc part. Are all Pre-Germanic loanwords supposed to have been borrowed within the final two centuries of the NBA? Because according to Kallio the language then should already have been more "Proto-Germanic" rather than "Paleo-Germanic".

    Regarding the Mycenaean stuff,

    I think contacts are indisputable, as are some form of influences. But I think the degree of such influences, especially the degree to which they happened exclusively in Scandinavia, can get overstated if enough care isn't taken. You know like Bronze Age Scandinavia being formed as a northern duplicate of Mycenaean society.

    Slightly related but definitely later, but I either heard or read Jorrit Kelder talk about a 800 bc grave in eastern Germany that was essentially just a Homeric Heroic burial. Body cremated, but the bones wrapped in a pelt and lavishly buried in a tumulus. This is a little different from typical Urnfield burials...

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