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Thread: Can a person who genetically cluster with Anatolian Turks be ethnically an Arab?

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    Why is there more of this among them than among Christians for example?
    Another angle which must considered is Steppe related ancestry mitigated by Plateau Iranian/Trans Caucasus populations , coupled with the fact groups along urban centers along the Lebanese coast could have other ancestry, we saw that with ancient samples from Beirut.

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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    I hate to ask this question, but are his parents related? Cosanguinity can cause certain genetic profiles to be sustained over generations.
    It says “This analysis indicates that your parents are probably not related within recent generations.”

  4. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by mnd View Post
    I suppose this might work if both his parents, or the majority of his grandparents, had settled in Lebanon and decided to start identifying as Lebanese Arabs - the problem is that this seems so far fetched. Why would anyone do that? And would your friend not be aware of it? Lebanon's Armenians would be a good example of recent settlers to the area, but they certainly haven't forgotten or abandoned their heritage.

    The idea that he descends from isolated Turkish settlers in Lebanon seems even more improbable. I have seen results from Iraqi, Syrian and even Palestinian Turkmen. While they all show levels of east Eurasian ancestry indicating some kind of Turkic input, they also show signs of local admixture. Their results don't fit the profiles of an average Anatolian Turk. Your friend actually appears to drift further away from the Levant, and towards the Caucasus, than an average Turk - the opposite of what would be expected.

    The level of genetic isolation required for your friend's difference from other Lebanese people only really seems to happen when there are significant religious or lifestyle differences, like Jews or Roma. This doesn't really exist between Turks and Arabs.

    I can't find an explanation for these kinds of results other than very recent migration (which presumably your friend or his family should be aware of?) or what I suggested in my post above.
    I guess some people might abandon their heritage to better integrate into the society they live in.

  5. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Another angle which must considered is Steppe related ancestry mitigated by Plateau Iranian/Trans Caucasus populations , coupled with the fact groups along urban centers along the Lebanese coast could have other ancestry, we saw that with ancient samples from Beirut.
    Fair chance. If there were settlements of Caucasians, Persians, and Kurds these groups were likely brought in by the Ottomans. In the case of Persians possibly refugees from the Safavids.

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  7. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Yes, they are quite a few influential Lebanese Sunni families in Beirut and Tripoli with recent Turkish ancestry but the great majority of them esp in the Bekaa and in far North certainly would be like other Lebanese locals. I do not think there was some mass movement of Turks into the Levant at all. Even during years of Mamluk or Ottoman rule , it was largely Druze feudal lords who dominated the Shouf and Bekaa. Inflated 'Turkish' ancestry is more due to the fact the pre Seljuk population share a lot of common ancestry with other Levantines. Also you have many modern populations in Anatolia who were simply just Turkified and have low to no Central Asian Turkic ancestry.
    I agree. There doesn't seem to have been any mass movement of Turks into the Levant as a whole, not in historical records nor in popular culture. Another thing important to note is East Eurasian admixture isn't universal among Levantines, even Levantine Muslims. It should be present for the most part in urban populations, especially in cities with a history of Turkish families settling in them, such as Beirut as you mentioned, and also villages with known Turkmen population, which there are some in Lebanon and northern Syria along the borders with Turkey. Also, the Bekaa was for most of time under the "Harfouche" family, who weren't Druze.
    Last edited by Lupriac; 06-12-2021 at 03:59 PM.

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  9. #46
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    My question is: if this is indeed just a Caucasus or Iranian plateau shift that we're looking at, why would Lebanese Muslims show a greater affinity to actual Turks, including Turks from western coastal Anatolia than their Christian counterparts do?

    Distance to: Turkish_Northwest
    0.10056289 Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
    0.10126245 Lebanese_Muslim
    0.10544987 Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
    0.10687381 Lebanese_Druze
    0.11600103 Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
    0.11689513 Lebanese_Christian
    0.11719949 Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox

    Distance to: Turkish_Southwest
    0.09448896 Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
    0.09594745 Lebanese_Muslim
    0.09983039 Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
    0.10144678 Lebanese_Druze
    0.11075120 Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
    0.11122788 Lebanese_Christian
    0.11192247 Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox

    Distance to: Turkish_Balikesir
    0.09918513 Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
    0.10008634 Lebanese_Muslim
    0.10392102 Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
    0.10523809 Lebanese_Druze
    0.11451881 Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
    0.11515159 Lebanese_Christian
    0.11566451 Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox

    Distance to: Turkish_Aydin
    0.09253852 Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
    0.09315433 Lebanese_Muslim
    0.09704037 Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
    0.09900465 Lebanese_Druze
    0.10807663 Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
    0.10875357 Lebanese_Christian
    0.10920047 Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox

    Distance to: Turkish_Adana
    0.06305756 Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
    0.06370809 Lebanese_Muslim
    0.06767574 Lebanese_Druze
    0.07073349 Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
    0.07755308 Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
    0.07873848 Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
    0.07943182 Lebanese_Christian

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post

    It is unfortunate that people categorically reject the notion that Levantine and Mesopotamian Muslims could genetically differ from their Christian/non-Muslim counterparts using the logic that "religion does not change genetics". Sure, if you convert to a new religion your own genes won't change but the religious persuasion of your ancestors can expose them to more contact and admixture with different groups than others.
    Because most people don't understand that religious divisions in both the Levant and Mesopotamia follow certain geographic lines and contours. So even if the Lebanese were all of the same faith certain divisions are inherent within its landscape.

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  12. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    Turkish ancestry seems substantial among Lebanese and Syrian Muslims. I had not been aware until recently of the extent of this admixture. A lot of Turks settled in the Levant it seems.
    My closest non-Iranian DNA relative on 23andme is a Syrian Arab from Damasus. Our common relatives are 2 Iranians who are close DNA relatives of mine from the same town as me in NW Iran, and a Turk from Samsun, Turkey.

    The Syrian Arab as far as he knows his family is a full Arab from Damasus. However, his ancestry composition is Iranian, Caucasian & Mesopotamian at 38.2%, Anatolian at 7.7%, Levantine at 26.1%, Egyptian at 12%, and Penisular Arab at 0%.

    I have known several Syrians in real life and Syrians who claim to be of Ottoman Ancestry is not uncommon. I think it is a sizable minority.

    The Ottoman incursion into the Levant took place under Selim I around 1520 when the Ottoman empire which had been a European empire up to that point took an interest in the middle east due to the rise of the Safavid Empie to its East.
    Last edited by NK19191; 06-14-2021 at 07:21 PM.

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  14. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by NK19191 View Post
    My closest non-Iranian DNA relative on 23andme is a Syrian Arab from Damasus. Our common relatives are 2 Iranians who are close DNA relatives of mine from the same town as me in NW Iran, and a Turk from Samsun, Turkey.

    The Syrian Arab as far as he knows his family is a full Arab Damasus. However, his ancestry composition is Iranian, Caucasian & Mesopotamian at 38.2%, Anatolian at 7.7%, Levantine at 26.1%, Egyptian at 12%, and Penisular Arab at 0%.

    I have known several Syrians in real life and Syrians who claim to be of Ottoman Ancestry is not uncommon. I think it is a sizable minority.

    The Ottoman incursion into the Levant took place under Selim I around 1520 when the Ottoman empire which had been a European empire up to that point took an interest in the middle east due to the rise of the Safavid Empie to its East.
    What about a possible Kurdish connection? Some could have an intermediate position genetically also.

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  16. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    What about a possible Kurdish connection? Some could have an intermediate position genetically also.
    It is possible. That is a good point. Even though this particular person has 7.7% Anatolian.

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