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Thread: Can a person who genetically cluster with Anatolian Turks be ethnically an Arab?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by rainn View Post
    You're welcome, his MDLP K16 Oracle results show that his closest ethnic groups are Turkish from Adana, Istanbul, Kayseri and Azerbaijani from Agdzhabedi, Khachmaz, Dagestan. Lebanese are not even in the first 20.
    You will need multiway oracles to accurately gauge this. I don't think Levantines getting Caucasus groups is normal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rainn View Post
    You're welcome, his MDLP K16 Oracle results show that his closest ethnic groups are Turkish from Adana, Istanbul, Kayseri and Azerbaijani from Agdzhabedi, Khachmaz, Dagestan. Lebanese are not even in the first 20.
    Thank you for your answer!

    So he must be an assimilated Turk from the Ottoman Era.

    Your friend is closer to Kayseri Turks than I am as someone whose paternal side is from Kayseri

    Just for a comparison for you to see how close he is to Anatolian Turks. Are the distances quite same but only for different Areas of Turkey ? For example, these are mine
    1 Turk (Balikesir) 3.94
    2 Turk (Aydin) 4.81
    3 Turk (Turkey) 5.9
    4 Turk (Istanbul) 8.55
    5 Circassian (Circassia) 9.77
    6 Greek (Azov) 9.95
    7 Kabardin (Kabardino-Balkaria) 10.03
    8 Nogai (Dagestan) 10.05
    9 Azerbaijani_Agdzhabedi (Azerbaijan_Agdzhabedi) 10.79
    10 Azerbaijani_Khachmaz (Azerbaijan_Khachmaz) 11.28
    11 Turk (Adana) 12.09
    12 Kumyk (Stalskoe) 12.14
    13 Azerbaijani (Azerbaijan) 12.65
    14 Turk (Kayseri) 13.15
    15 Jew (Ashkenazi) 13.78
    16 Jew (Ashkenazi) 13.81
    17 Azeri (Azerbaijan) 13.82
    18 Jew (Sephardim) 13.86
    19 Greek (Macedonia) 13.98
    20 Turkmens (Turkmenistan) 14.1

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  4. #23
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    But Levantine and Mesopotamia had different ethnical backgrounds or am I wrong ? I saw an article that said that Lebanese are still different from their Mesopotamian Arab counterparts. And i could not see the difference between a Christian Lebanese and a muslim Lebanese. Only the name tells me in what he does believe.


    By the way, also thank you to you for the uploaded results.

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  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrtni View Post
    But Levantine and Mesopotamia had different ethnical backgrounds or am I wrong ? I saw an article that said that Lebanese are still different from their Mesopotamian Arab counterparts. And i could not see the difference between a Christian Lebanese and a muslim Lebanese. Only the name tells me in what he does believe.


    By the way, also thank you to you for the uploaded results.
    You’re welcome. AFAIK, there is not a huge difference among Lebanese Muslims and Lebanese Christians but Lebanese Muslims are just a little bit more North African, Northeast African (Red Sea) and Yamnaya admixed than Lebanese Christians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrtni View Post
    But Levantine and Mesopotamia had different ethnical backgrounds or am I wrong ? I saw an article that said that Lebanese are still different from their Mesopotamian Arab counterparts. And i could not see the difference between a Christian Lebanese and a muslim Lebanese. Only the name tells me in what he does believe.


    By the way, also thank you to you for the uploaded results.
    Yes Levantine Muslims are a mix of native Levantine+Turkish+SSA/East African+Bedouin+perhaps North African. Mesopotamian Arab Muslims are a mix of native Mesopotamian+Persian/Kurdish+Bedouin+East African/SSA.

    Overall the most important difference as far as fits are concerned is the SSA since that’s a very foreign component in spite of ironically being the smallest component. But you get a fit improvement adding in relevant neighboring groups too.

    Look at the fit distances from Turks and Persians between the Christians vs the Muslims and that's in spite of SSA and Arabian input in the Lebanese Muslims, mind you. This is how we know its not a false positive.

    Distance to: Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
    0.07073349 Turkish_Adana
    0.08658057 Iranian_Fars

    Distance to: Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
    0.06305756 Turkish_Adana
    0.07903319 Iranian_Fars

    Distance to: Lebanese_Muslim
    0.06370809 Turkish_Adana
    0.08410308 Iranian_Fars

    Distance to: Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
    0.07755308 Turkish_Adana
    0.09779150 Iranian_Fars

    Distance to: Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
    0.07873848 Turkish_Adana
    0.09913947 Iranian_Fars

    Distance to: Lebanese_Christian
    0.07943182 Turkish_Adana
    0.10061322 Iranian_Fars
    Last edited by Cynic; 06-10-2021 at 07:13 PM.

  8. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrtni View Post
    But Levantine and Mesopotamia had different ethnical backgrounds or am I wrong ? I saw an article that said that Lebanese are still different from their Mesopotamian Arab counterparts. And i could not see the difference between a Christian Lebanese and a muslim Lebanese. Only the name tells me in what he does believe.


    By the way, also thank you to you for the uploaded results.
    There are differences between lebanese Christians and Muslims. Muslims tend to have more East African, and their increase in yamnaya is most likely to do with a more Eastern source. Christians also experienced an increase in yamnaya as well but it came from a more western source. Some time during the ottoman period Lebanese Christians most likely mixed with other neighboring Christian groups from Armenia, Cyprus, and Greek Anatolians. Lebanese Muslims probably mixed with other Muslims from Turkey and Iran. Also it must be pointed out that the Lebanese received admixture from Anatolia at different times from different groups. They are a mixed bag but they're largest portion would be Anatolian and Christians display this better than Muslims. West Asian is not a bad label for them but really to be called an 'Arab' completely misrepresents their history and usually it is Muslims who prefer this ethnic label. But I have not come across any evidence of a huge impact made by Arabs. Sure they speak an Arabic dialect but honestly they are not that close to Arabs to warrant the name. Just a disclaimer: I'm speaking of averages here not individuals. They're is a good deal of variety looking at Lebanese individuals.

  9. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    You will need multiway oracles to accurately gauge this. I don't think Levantines getting Caucasus groups is normal.
    At a distance of 5-6 units, he gets 30% Lebanese Druze and 70% Circassian in Oracle. In Oracle-4, he can be modeled as 25% Lebanese (Druze or Muslim), 25% some ethnic groups from North Caucasus, 50% Turkish (from several provinces of Turkey) at a distance of, again, 5-6 units. However, his closest matches in Oracle is usually 60% Turkish and 40% several ethnic groups from Caucasus at a distance of 3-4 units.
    Last edited by rainn; 06-10-2021 at 08:20 PM.

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  11. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander87 View Post
    There are differences between lebanese Christians and Muslims. Muslims tend to have more East African, and their increase in yamnaya is most likely to do with a more Eastern source. Christians also experienced an increase in yamnaya as well but it came from a more western source. Some time during the ottoman period Lebanese Christians most likely mixed with other neighboring Christian groups from Armenia, Cyprus, and Greek Anatolians. Lebanese Muslims probably mixed with other Muslims from Turkey and Iran. Also it must be pointed out that the Lebanese received admixture from Anatolia at different times from different groups. They are a mixed bag but they're largest portion would be Anatolian and Christians display this better than Muslims. West Asian is not a bad label for them but really to be called an 'Arab' completely misrepresents their history and usually it is Muslims who prefer this ethnic label. But I have not come across any evidence of a huge impact made by Arabs. Sure they speak an Arabic dialect but honestly they are not that close to Arabs to warrant the name. Just a disclaimer: I'm speaking of averages here not individuals. They're is a good deal of variety looking at Lebanese individuals.
    A few points:

    1) We need to keep in mind the "urban" more-coastal vs "rural" more-inland populations. Urban populations are always going to be more diverse and admixed, as most of these people tend to be merchants and traders and such, and so their careers enable them to marry from foreign populations much more easily than it would for a rural farmer in a mountainous village. Different communities will have their own patterns but they apply to most if not all of them.

    2) The main shift in Lebanese Muslims isn't with excess of South/Central Asian or presence of Bedouin-related ancestry (which doesn't seem to pop up), but it's the extra Sub-Saharan African admixture they have compared to other confessional groups, and also the occasional presence of East Eurasian ancestry, which seems to pop up only a some individuals and not entirely. This relatively small contribution (~2-4% on average) shifts these Muslims significantly from their Christian counterparts and its very clear on a PCA.

    3) Granted, I think the explanation of Turks marrying with the local Muslims for their slight extra Yamnaya is too simple an explanation, but I think a very eastern source (such as Ghaznavids you mentioned in a previous post) sounds not very plausible either, unless it happened a long time, which we can't confirm or allude to. It's seemingly a more "Caucasus-like" shift, and for that I think Kurds & the Mamluk Turkmen that were settled in the 1300s from modern-day Turkey, as distinct but simultaneous sources, are more likely than Ottoman Turks, in which this admixture probably have had already been seeping-in to the genepool of the Lebanese since the earlier periods (1250-1500) rather than the Ottoman period mentioned in Haber et al. 2020 to about 1600- late 1700s.

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  13. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lupriac View Post
    A few points:

    1) We need to keep in mind the "urban" more-coastal vs "rural" more-inland populations. Urban populations are always going to be more diverse and admixed, as most of these people tend to be merchants and traders and such, and so their careers enable them to marry from foreign populations much more easily than it would for a rural farmer in a mountainous village. Different communities will have their own patterns but they apply to most if not all of them.

    2) The main shift in Lebanese Muslims isn't with excess of South/Central Asian or presence of Bedouin-related ancestry (which doesn't seem to pop up), but it's the extra Sub-Saharan African admixture they have compared to other confessional groups, and also the occasional presence of East Eurasian ancestry, which seems to pop up only a some individuals and not entirely. This relatively small contribution (~2-4% on average) shifts these Muslims significantly from their Christian counterparts and its very clear on a PCA.

    3) Granted, I think the explanation of Turks marrying with the local Muslims for their slight extra Yamnaya is too simple an explanation, but I think a very eastern source (such as Ghaznavids you mentioned in a previous post) sounds not very plausible either, unless it happened a long time, which we can't confirm or allude to. It's seemingly a more "Caucasus-like" shift, and for that I think Kurds & the Mamluk Turkmen that were settled in the 1300s from modern-day Turkey, as distinct but simultaneous sources, are more likely than Ottoman Turks, in which this admixture probably have had already been seeping-in to the genepool of the Lebanese since the earlier periods (1250-1500) rather than the Ottoman period mentioned in Haber et al. 2020 to about 1600- late 1700s.

    Were Kurds settled in large numbers in the Levant? I read that the Sunni exiles from Iran were settled in parts of the Ottoman empire.

  14. #30
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    If you don't post gedmatch results, you will not receive healthy answers.
    Also, who are the "Anatolian Turks" anyway, genetics shift dramatically in Turkey from East to West and from North to South.

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