Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ... 3456 LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 59

Thread: Eastern Ashkenazi Jews and the medieval Kna'anim

  1. #41
    Registered Users
    Posts
    188
    Location
    US
    Ethnicity
    Jewish & British
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-Y140446
    mtDNA (M)
    H4a1a4b2
    Y-DNA (M)
    I-Z60
    mtDNA (P)
    V7a7a2

    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rohlfsen View Post
    I'll volunteer my services here. I have an interest in this anyway with my grandmother's mom coming from Jews in Pommern. Most of my Jewish matches are from much further east.

    If someone would like to share Jewish genomes with me, I'll analyze the hell out of it.
    Awesome!! This is great; I've always wanted to see some Admixtools analysis for Ashkenazim.

    What is the file format you need? There are country-coded Ashkenazi samples from Germany, Poland, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, and Russia in G25; I assume whatever raw genotype data David used to convert to G25 would work for your needs?
     
    My avatar is paleoart of a Neanderthal child by Tom Björklund, check him out: Hidden Content

  2. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to leorcooper19 For This Useful Post:

     Erikl86 (06-12-2021),  jkotl0327 (06-12-2021),  JMcB (06-12-2021),  Seabass (06-12-2021),  SUPREEEEEME (06-12-2021)

  3. #42
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,800
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF27 FGC17112
    mtDNA (M)
    H5a1

    Quote Originally Posted by leorcooper19 View Post
    Awesome!! This is great; I've always wanted to see some Admixtools analysis for Ashkenazim.

    What is the file format you need? There are country-coded Ashkenazi samples from Germany, Poland, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, and Russia in G25; I assume whatever raw genotype data David used to convert to G25 would work for your needs?
    Yup! Any individuals with 23andme can toss theirs in too. Let's get a project rolling.

  4. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Chad Rohlfsen For This Useful Post:

     Erikl86 (06-12-2021),  jkotl0327 (06-12-2021),  JMcB (06-12-2021)

  5. #43
    Banned
    Posts
    40
    Sex
    Location
    Groovy Town, USA
    Ethnicity
    Euro-American
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-M417
    mtDNA (M)
    N1b1b
    mtDNA (P)
    H3

    Germany Denmark Ireland Munster Poland Belarus
    Quote Originally Posted by leorcooper19 View Post
    N1b1b1 actually is most likely derived from Rhenish Jewry; in FTDNA match lists we can see it has an above-average rate of WAJs in the lineage itself, and in Costa et al. 2013's random sampling of Western and Eastern Ashkenazim, they found that N1b1b1 (called N1b2 in their paper) appears at a rate of 14.3% and 8.8% respectively. This is a very similar result to K1a1b1a, which goes from 34.3% to 18.7% among Western and Eastern Ashkenazi Jews respectively. If the lineage was Kna'ani, we would expect it to peak in the east, not the west.

    In terms of the ultimate origins, the likeliest is, as you said, a connection to the wider Byzantine Jewish world. This probably entails connections to several specific medieval communities, including those in Greece and those in the Caucasus.
    Oh wow, I had not even Really consider a west-east origin of my subclade, but with all you've pointed out, it totally makes sense. I've never tested with FTDNA, but did a little bit of more digging and indeed. Thanks, friend.
    Last edited by AbideInLove; 06-12-2021 at 03:25 PM. Reason: grammar

  6. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to AbideInLove For This Useful Post:

     Erikl86 (06-12-2021),  jkotl0327 (06-12-2021),  JMcB (06-12-2021),  leorcooper19 (06-12-2021),  Luso (06-12-2021)

  7. #44
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,524
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Ashkenazi Jew
    Y-DNA (P)
    Q-YP3924
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a1b1a
    mtDNA (P)
    K2a2a

    Israel Israel Jerusalem Star of David
    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rohlfsen View Post
    Yup! Any individuals with 23andme can toss theirs in too. Let's get a project rolling.
    Awesome - where to? A specific email or your website's contact?
    Check out my Hidden Content

  8. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Erikl86 For This Useful Post:

     jkotl0327 (06-12-2021),  JMcB (06-12-2021),  leorcooper19 (06-12-2021)

  9. #45
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,800
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF27 FGC17112
    mtDNA (M)
    H5a1

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikl86 View Post
    Awesome - where to? A specific email or your website's contact?
    [email protected]

  10. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Chad Rohlfsen For This Useful Post:

     Erikl86 (06-12-2021),  jkotl0327 (06-12-2021),  JMcB (06-12-2021),  leorcooper19 (06-12-2021)

  11. #46
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,800
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF27 FGC17112
    mtDNA (M)
    H5a1

    Should we start a new thread for this?

  12. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Chad Rohlfsen For This Useful Post:

     Erikl86 (06-13-2021),  hartaisarlag (06-13-2021),  JMcB (06-12-2021)

  13. #47
    Registered Users
    Posts
    188
    Location
    US
    Ethnicity
    Jewish & British
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-Y140446
    mtDNA (M)
    H4a1a4b2
    Y-DNA (M)
    I-Z60
    mtDNA (P)
    V7a7a2

    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rohlfsen View Post
    Should we start a new thread for this?
    Sure! I imagine (and hope) the findings will go beyond the question of the East Kna'anic component.
     
    My avatar is paleoart of a Neanderthal child by Tom Björklund, check him out: Hidden Content

  14. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to leorcooper19 For This Useful Post:

     Erikl86 (06-13-2021),  hartaisarlag (06-13-2021),  jkotl0327 (06-13-2021),  JMcB (06-12-2021),  Riverman (06-13-2021)

  15. #48
    Registered Users
    Posts
    6
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Ashkenazi Jewish
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-CtS6
    mtDNA (M)
    H1e4a
    Y-DNA (M)
    E-L29
    mtDNA (P)
    N1B2

    I have seen german jews with mtdna HV1b2
    also Would you know anything about H1e4a

  16. #49
    Registered Users
    Posts
    188
    Location
    US
    Ethnicity
    Jewish & British
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-Y140446
    mtDNA (M)
    H4a1a4b2
    Y-DNA (M)
    I-Z60
    mtDNA (P)
    V7a7a2

    Quote Originally Posted by Naffi View Post
    I have seen german jews with mtdna HV1b2
    They definitely do have it, it's just that it is found at a much lower rate among WAJs than among EAJs. That, combined with its representation among Romaniotes and Juhurim, makes me think it has an above-average chance at being East Kna'anic.

    also Would you know anything about H1e4a
    H1e4a was estimated by Wim Penninx to be the 11th largest Ashkenazi mtDNA lineage, found at a "global" rate of 1.84%. On FTDNA, approximately 1/8 of Ashkenazim in the match list hail from Germany, which is an above-average rate. H1e4a is very likely ultimately non-Mediterranean European, and given it was very possibly found among medieval Rhenish Jews based on its WAJ rate, an origin in a Western/Central European (probably Germanic-speaking) woman is likelier than a Slavic one.
     
    My avatar is paleoart of a Neanderthal child by Tom Björklund, check him out: Hidden Content

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to leorcooper19 For This Useful Post:

     Riverman (06-17-2021)

  18. #50
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,524
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Ashkenazi Jew
    Y-DNA (P)
    Q-YP3924
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a1b1a
    mtDNA (P)
    K2a2a

    Israel Israel Jerusalem Star of David
    Quote Originally Posted by leorcooper19 View Post
    I'll get started with my guesses for the first few.

    1) If the average EAJ is only, say, 3-5% East Kna'anic, and if their 1-2% East Asian component is solely derived from East Kna'anim, then it doesn't take a lot of brain power to realize that East Kna'anim may have been anywhere from 20-50% East Asian! Despite my strong belief in these base numbers, I have to admit that I find these high, extrapolated rates hard to believe. But, does that mean it's impossible? Not at all.

    Besides this component, I do think it's also likely that East Kna'anim were had a higher West_Asian component relative to their East_Med components, using Eurogenes K13 terminology as you yourself have first noticed.


    2) I believe there are three sources for the origins of East Kna'anim:
    - Western Rabbinical Jews- specifically Romaniote Jews of Greece/southern Balkans/Anatolia- as evidenced by the historical connection between the Jewry of "Yevan" (Greece) and "Knaan" (Slavic-speaking Europe).
    - Eastern Rabbinical Jews- specifically Jews of the Caucasus- as evidenced by shared clades like HV1b2 and R-FGC13201.
    - Karaite Jews- specifically Crimean Karaites and their descendant populations in Western Ukraine and, especially, Lithuania- as evidenced by the known connection and intermarriage (albeit uncommon) between Karaites and Rabbinical Jews in Eastern Europe.

    3) It's probably Litvaks, mainly because their profile is one that a) was subject to a clear founder effect that b) was neither wiped out during the Khmelnitsky massacres as others were, nor was then opened up to further migration (and effective homogeneity) from Poylishers and Galitzianers. But, while there do indeed seem to be consistent differences between Litvaks and other EAJs, they are still >95% the same exact population.

    4) Other than I-Y23115, R-FGC13211, G-FGC1093, HV1b2, and M33c2, other clades that may be East Kna'anic are:
    - N9a3, which has a similar size to M33c2 and is similarly absent from Western Ashkenazim. Close matches to Ashkenazi N9a3 include Chinese, Chechen, and Ingush individuals.
    - J-FGC30508, which has a young TMRCA of only c. 1350 CE, basal Jews from southern Italy and Greece, and only one German Jew from Bavaria known downstream.
    - G-Z44224, which is very similar to G-FGC1093 in its age, spread, and size, although is tentatively lacking a close "anchor" to the eastern route.
    - I-BY424, which is quite young, almost entirely EAJ, and may be close to a known Juhuri from 23andMe
    - R-YP6547*, which while having some downstream participants from Italy, is mainly EAJ and is nested in R-Z93 Steppe diversity.
    - J-FGC75679, which is entirely Eastern Ashkenazi and is similarly mostly Litvak.
    - G-L201, which has a similar size, spread, and size to the other G clades mentioned above except is likely ultimately Judaean, as opposed to North Caucasian like the others.
    - HV5a, which has a low rate of WAJs (5.5%), and has a similar spread to HV1b2 (yet is not found in Romaniote or Juhuri communities as HV1b2 is)

    Looking forward to further additions from others for #5 and 6.

    I don't believe the East Asian admixture and the Kna'anic ancestry are necessarily related - one of the reasons is of course the implications of the amount of E. Asian ancestry.

    I kind of agree with you about the three main sources for their origin (Byzantine Romaniote Jews, Mizrahi Jew via Caucasus or even via the Byzantine Empire onto Europe, and Karaite Jews).

    Several key things to remember there:

    1. The Danube route:

    danube.png

    2. We know that by 995 CE, there were already Jews in Prague, thanks to the considered credible accounts of Sephardic (proto-Sephardic?) Rabbi Abraham ben Jacob who travelled there and met with them; he wrote that they arrived from the Byzantine Empire. While Czech Jews do not really subscribe to East Kna'anim, they do subscribe to West Kna'anim, and the fact that we have at least one credible source documenting a Jewish community in Central Europe that early deriving from Byzantine Jewry, is really re-assuring.

    3. In the late fourteenth century (circa 1490s), the Lithuanian Principality forcibly resettled people from the northern Black Sea coast, including Karaites who founded a new community in Troki (Trakai). These Jews would undoubtedly have Mizrahi admixture, and Karaite Jews which might have joined Rabbinical Jews over the generations might have contributed some of the elevated West Asian as well. Considered Lithuania and Belarus had an estimated Jewish population of ~1,000 at the time, we're looking at a very substantial founder effect coming from these Black Sea area Jews:

    pop1.png

    4. Regarding the East Asian admixture - I'd like to consider the fact that East European Jews (I'm talking mainly about Kna'anim) have had the opportunity and access to a vast East Asian empire in the 13th-14th centuries; aka Mongol Empire and it's later West Asian inheritors. This to me means we need to consider slave trade, especially considering the solely maternal nature of the uniparental evidence here. I know one of the most common subclade is M33c2 and is found mostly among South Chinese, which would put the source for that exactly on the opposite side of said empire, but, with cross continental slave trades and routes, one can never know which salves ended up in the markets of Novgorod, marched from Sarai. And considering the powerful founder effect we're dealing with here, it would only take a dozen or so such women early on enough to make an impact.
    Check out my Hidden Content

  19. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Erikl86 For This Useful Post:

     jkotl0327 (06-19-2021),  JoeyP37 (06-19-2021),  StillWater (06-19-2021),  Targum (06-20-2021),  Tomenable (06-21-2021)

Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ... 3456 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 20
    Last Post: 09-18-2020, 09:29 PM
  2. The DNA of Ashkenazi & Sephardic Jews
    By Logistics in forum Jewish
    Replies: 76
    Last Post: 06-09-2020, 01:56 AM
  3. E1a1 among Ashkenazi Jews
    By Power77 in forum Jewish
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 12-02-2018, 03:33 PM
  4. A new paper on Ashkenazi Jews.
    By Kaldo in forum Jewish
    Replies: 147
    Last Post: 08-21-2017, 04:04 AM
  5. Ashkenazi Jews - R1a
    By ÁNLEIFR in forum Jewish
    Replies: 39
    Last Post: 03-23-2016, 01:57 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •