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Thread: Baltic R1a - five years later

  1. #21
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    Interestingly, the Y2395 samples from Baltic CWC are genetically quite different actually despite being more or less from the same period (around 2500 B.C). Kunila2 is Late_CWC/Steppe_MLBA-like hence getting the closest distance to Fatyanovo but Gyvakarai1 is much more shifted towards Steppe_EBA. Probably points to GAC-like admixture being very uneven spread among earliest CWC groups what we also have seen among Fatyanovo samples with Z93

    Distance to: Corded_Ware_Baltic_early:Gyvakarai1_10bp
    0.02436672 Corded_Ware_Baltic_early
    0.02929535 RUS_Potapovka_MLBA
    0.03934607 KAZ_Georgievsky_LBA
    0.04036673 UZB_Kokcha_BA
    0.04142600 Corded_Ware_POL_early
    0.04232252 BGR_MLBA
    0.04277599 RUS_Poltavka
    0.04307157 TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA
    0.04402973 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia
    0.04436775 KAZ_Mys_MLBA
    0.04436928 UKR_Catacomb
    0.04472504 Yamnaya_UKR


    Distance to: Corded_Ware_Baltic:Kunila2
    0.03035088 RUS_Fatyanovo_BA
    0.03203480 Corded_Ware_CZE
    0.03492296 Corded_Ware_POL
    0.03578442 SWE_Battle_Axe
    0.03658257 KAZ_Chanchar_LBA
    0.03662762 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
    0.03684617 POL_Chlopice_Vesele_Culture
    0.03836297 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
    0.03882129 KAZ_Kairan_MLBA
    0.03903944 Bell_Beaker_Rhine-Main
    0.03940924 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_contam
    0.03956232 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
    0.03974029 RUS_Srubnaya_MLBA
    0.04045651 RUS_Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA
    0.04114211 Corded_Ware_Baltic


    Target: Corded_Ware_Baltic_early:Gyvakarai1_10bp
    Distance: 3.2553% / 0.03255271
    90.6 Corded_Ware_POL_early
    9.4 POL_Globular_Amphora

    Target: Corded_Ware_Baltic:Kunila2
    Distance: 3.8852% / 0.03885178
    70.2 Corded_Ware_POL_early
    29.8 POL_Globular_Amphora

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  3. #22
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    Interesting source:
    http://blog.vayda.pl/en/haplogroup-r...2-2018-14-new/

    Not sure how reliable but it shows rather large M458 in Balts (Lithuanians and Latvians).

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Interesting source:
    http://blog.vayda.pl/en/haplogroup-r...2-2018-14-new/

    Not sure how reliable but it shows rather large M458 in Balts (Lithuanians and Latvians).
    I would say the modern-day frequency of M458 is not so much relevant as the ages of the Baltic-specific M458 clades, which seems to be very low based on YFull and ftdna. As long as we do not find a significant presence of basal M458 clades among modern-day or better ancient Baltics, we should assume a very recent Slavic-related origin (if someone is aware of a significant presence of basal M458 clades among Balts please correct me)

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  7. #24
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    Another but related topic is ancient Baltic-related mtDNA (It could give hints about the origin of Baltic R1a before the Late Bronze Age). I checked currently published BA samples from Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia (i probably missed some of the samples) and most of the mtDNA is EEF derived and shared with Beall Beakers and other CWC subgroups. The fact that so much mtDNA is shared with Beall Beakers has probably something to do with Bell Beakers being much better than sampled than any other BA group of North Europe. Nonetheless these Baltic BA mtDNA clades are today frequent in East Europe and among modern day Slavs (including South Slavs) but also found often in modern-day West Europe and especially Scandinavia, what probably means that they are of TRB/GAC origin.

    Culture ID Mtdna Found in Ancient cultures Frequent Today Age (Yfull estimate) Origin
    BA_LTU Turlojiske3 H4a1a1a3 H4a1a1a found Bell Beaker, BA Germany, Czech Unetice H4a1a1a in West Europe (Spain, Britain, Sweden) CWC/GAC/TRB
    BA_LTU Turlojiske1 T2b Pan-EEF (Found in ancient Anatolia, West Europe, Balkan) Generic EEF
    CW_LTU_O Spiginas2 I4a CWC Czechia, Bell Beakers Scandinavia, Poland, East Europe CWC/Steppe
    BA_LVA Kivutkalns153 U5a1a1 Yamnaya, Afanasasievo, Bell Beakers Pan Europe but especially North Europe formed 10700 ybp, TMRCA 5700 ybp CWC/Steppe
    BA_LVA Kivutkalns19 H10a H10 found in Neolithic Croatia/Germany and Bell Beakers of Central Europe Scandinavia, East Europe, Slavs formed 9200 ybp, TMRCA 5300 ybp CWC/GAC/TRB
    BA_LVA Kivutkalns25 H28a found in Globular Amphora, Viking Age Scandinavia, Kowalewko Scandinavia (especially Finnland), East Europe,Central Europe formed 8200 ybp, TMRCA 3700 ybp CWC/GAC/TRB
    BA_LVA Kivutkalns42 H1b1 BA Hungary, BA Germany, Bell Beakers East Europe, Slavs, North Europe, West Europe CWC/GAC/TRB
    BA_LVA Kivutkalns194 T1a1b Altai IA East Europe, Central Asia, Iran formed 5100 ybp, TMRCA 3600 ybp CWC/Steppe
    BA_LVA Kivutkalns207 H1b2 East Europe, Scandinavia formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 2900 ybp CWC/GAC/TRB
    BA_LVA Kivutkalns209: J1b1a1 Bell Beaker, CWC Czechia Scandinavia, East Europe, Slavs formed 4600 ybp, TMRCA 2700 ybp CWC/GAC/TRB
    BA_LVA Kivutkalns215: H1c Bell Beaker, BA Germany Scandinavia, Turkey, East Europe, Balkan formed 9400 ybp, TMRCA 4300 ybp CWC/GAC/TRB
    BA_LVA Kivutkalns222 U5a1c1 Mesolithic Balkan, CA Hungary East Europe, Central Europe, Slavs formed 10800 ybp, TMRCA 4900 ybp WHG
    EST_LBA V16 H1b2 East Europe, Scandinavia formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 2900 ybp CWC/GAC/TRB
    EST_LBA X17 U4a2b U4a2 found in Baltic HG, Yamnaya and Bell Beaker Scandinavia, East Europe, Slavs formed 13800 ybp, TMRCA 3900 ybp Steppe/WHG?
    EST_LBA X11 J1c2k Viking Age Scandinavia Central Europe, Balkan formed 7700 ybp, TMRCA 3900 ybp
    EST_LBA X14 H1b2 East Europe, Scandinavia formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 2900 ybp

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  9. #25
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    I think we should compare them to previous mtDNA (early BA) and see if there is a difference and if so then in which direction. I imagine all those Scandinavian matches might be in Baltics already EBA.

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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    I think we should compare them to previous mtDNA (early BA) and see if there is a difference and if so then in which direction. I imagine all those Scandinavian matches might be in Baltics already EBA.
    Actually, the mtDNA of CWC_Baltic is quite different much more Steppe (more matches with Sintashta/Srubnaya because of that) and low in mtDNA H, which is typical today for generally all Europeans including Balto-Slavs and Scandinavians. Of course, someone should not interpret too much into mtDNA frequencies because they are much less conclusive about migrations and linguistic replacements. But combined with the evidence of Y-DNA replacement after the arrival of Z92 and cts1211 it does not seem CWC_Baltic contributed much to Balt_BA. Of course, someone would need to check that with other methods and future published studies. It is also possible that the Pre-CWC population in the Baltics was still numerous when Z92 and cts1211 arrived around 2000 B.C so mixing could primarily happen with pre-CWC locals.

    Culture ID Mtdna Found in Ancient cultures Frequent Today Age Origin
    CWC_Baltic Plinkaigalis242 W6a CWC Germany, W6 Yamnaya, Fatyanovo East Europe formed 10500 ybp, TMRCA 7100 ybp CWC/Steppe
    CWC_Baltic Plinkaigalis241 I2 Bell Beaker, Andronovo, CWC Poland Caucasus, West Europe, Central Asia, Central Europe formed 11600 ybp, TMRCA 8900 ybp CWC/Steppe
    CWC_Baltic Gyvakarai1 K1b2a Yamnaya, Srubnaya, Trzciniec, Altai IA East Europe, Scandinavia, formed 7800 ybp, TMRCA 5300 ybp CWC/Steppe
    CWC_Baltic kar1 H1f1a Kowalewko Finnland formed 1100 ybp, TMRCA 1100 ybp CWC/GAC/TRB?
    CWC_Baltic Kunila1 U5b1b Mesolithic France, Mesolithic Poland, Neolithic Central Europe, Baltic HG Scandinavia, West Europe, Central Europe formed 13300 ybp, TMRCA 10600 ybp WHG?
    CWC_Baltic Kunila2 J1c3 Globular Amphora, Neolithic Spain, CA Hungary Pan-European EEF lineage formed 11100 ybp, TMRCA 8800 ybp CWC/GAC/TRB
    CWC_Baltic Ardu1 T2a1 Yamnaya, Beall Beakers, Srubnaya formed 9600 ybp, TMRCA 7700 ybp CWC/Steppe
    CWC_Baltic Ardu2 U5b2c Fatyanovo, Mesolithic Lithuania,Mesolithic Serbia, Bell Beakers North Europe formed 11900 ybp, TMRCA 6400 ybp CWC/Steppe or WHG
    CWC_Baltic RISE00 H5a1 Bell Beaker, Corded Ware, Sintashta West Europe, East Europe formed 4000 ybp, TMRCA 4000 ybp CWC/GAC/TRB

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  13. #27
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    Yeah, I think we can then be pretty sure that LVA_BA folk arrived from somewhere and replaced whoever was living there before.

    So, where from? Rzucewo (Because Narva, GAC, CWC mix)? Hungary (because some HG acc Arza)? Middle Dnieper (because classic)?

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  15. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    Yeah, I think we can then be pretty sure that LVA_BA folk arrived from somewhere and replaced whoever was living there before.

    So, where from? Rzucewo (Because Narva, GAC, CWC mix)? Hungary (because some HG acc Arza)? Middle Dnieper (because classic)?
    well Hungary has really lot Neolithic/Bronze Age samples published so far but there is still not much of a mtDNA overlap definetly less than with GAC, Bell Beakers and CWC in Central Europe. LBK and Balkan EEFs were generally low in mtDNA H compared to North Euro EEFs and modern day Europeans.

    Baltic BA clades like H28a, H5a1,H1b2 and J1c were already found in GAC. Of couse historical and modern Slavic mtDNA will be a more complicated story because Slavs unlike Balts would pick up some later EEF admix either from Central-West Europe or the Carpathians/Balkan but it is unlikely that this component transmitted Balto-Slavic languages (no Y-DNA among Balto-Slavs linked to BA Hungary or BA Balkan)

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  17. #29
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    Russian Federation Russia Tatarstan Arms Russia Mordovia Timurid
    Not an easy thing to concretely sketch out using qpAdm or G25 but from bits and pieces plus the Y-DNA data, I'm not seeing a lot of continuity between the early CW people from the Baltics and later Bronze-Age samples from Kivutkalns, Spiginas, and Turlojiske that were downstream of Z280 - at the very least Baltic_BA don't model well as simply early-CW + some native HG tacked on.

     



     


     


    The weights/proportions and pop choices are all over the place so take all these numbers with a generous serving of salt (for one the Latvia_HG/Zvejnieki samples are as old as dirt compared to the others, I bet most of the HG admixture came from populations like Narva) but I think this gets the general point across.

    Baltic_BA compared to early Baltic Corded-Ware requires extra GAC/TRB/EEF that presumably could have only come from somewhere to the South.

     


    f4(outpop, X; Barcin, CW_Baltic_Early) - Bellow the line means the target is more Barcin/EEF shifted.

     


    Same idea but using GAC instead of Barcin.
    YDNA (P): R-Y33
    YDNA (P, maternal line): R-Y20756
    YDNA(M): E-Y6938

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  19. #30
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    Interesting that I had never found an article trying to locate a “Balto-Slavic” homeland linguistically.
    Since I know Baltic (Latvian) and Slavic (Russian) and I got wiktionary for etymologies, will try to come up with something. Or google up some.

    Rzucewo culture likely is a pass on linguistic grounds. Sea terminology is neither rich for Slavs, nor Balts. Amber can’t be reconstructed for Proto-Slavic, and lacks satisfactory etymology in Baltic. “Sea” itself is not shared in both language groups (more and jūra).

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