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  1. #1
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    Y-DNA (P)
    N - Z16980

    Baltic R1a - five years later

    Hey everyone,

    5 years ago we had pretty interesting discussion based on knowledge of year 2016. It was fun and even educational for me (in 2021) to go through different posts in that topic:

    Couple of Points:
    1) When in doubt listen to Michal. I argued with him that Fatyanovo must have been Z280, when he was ahead of the time and stated it was Z93. Arguments were sound and science proved him right. Well done!
    2) CTS1211 - within these years we have found that Baltic_BA (Latvia and Lithuania) had this already, maybe long dead lines, but still. Don't know what this adds to our common understanding
    3) Z92 - not much else added. Except apparently it is common among Old Prussian heritage Polish nobility and for JR Tolkien (his ancestors came from Tolkkeim, Prussia). If you know of ancient Z92 samples (I think there was one in Early Slavs, the Slavic subclade) let me know.
    4) I honestly dont know what the latest info on Baltic R1a. It seems not much progress has been since 5 years. I.e. there was no any research on Latvians, Lithuanians or Estonians on different R1a (Z92, CTS1211, M458, etc).
    5) "In my opinion, the homeland of CTS1211 was most likely located in a region encompassing Belarus and some neighboring territories (which was more or less where Z92 expanded as well, although I would certainly agree with you that the Z92 expansion center was likely located slightly east to the CTS1211 expansion center), and thus I would rather associate the demographic and territorial expansion of both CTS1211 and Z92 with a birth and expansion of the "Proto-Balto-Slavic" Trzciniec-Komarov-Sosnica complex. Please note that we have some subclades dirrectly under CTS1211 that are seen in Finland/Karelia or in Eastern Europe only, while I am not aware of any such subclade just under CTS1211 that would be specific for Central-Western Europe only (which is inconsistent with your scenario when taking into account a relatively early TMRCA age for CTS1211)." - Michal 2016. Wonder if any new data has changed this opinion.
    6) I already mentioned Barrow Cemeteries with Stone Circles as possible N-M2783 culture in 2016. And in these five years we had a sample Lithuanian_IA_low_quality with L-1025 (father of M2783) detected 3rd AD in North Lithuanian Barrows Culture with Stone Circles.
    7) for next 5 years one of puzzles I have is autosomals of Proto-East-Balts. Going by different models - Latvians and Zhemaitians are heavily Latvian_BA-ish derived population, whereas Aukstaitians are more like 50/50 Latvian_BA and Avar_Szolad (Pre-Slavic? Balto-Slavic?). Question is whether East Balts were Avar_Szolad like and Lat/Zhem got heavy pre-East-Balt substrate (WB, FU, something else); or East Balts were pretty much Latvian_BA and it is Slavic(?) admixture in Aukstaitians making them more Avar like.

    If you got any other additional information to the topic, please share!

  2. The Following 13 Users Say Thank You to parastais For This Useful Post:

     Alain (06-11-2021),  altvred (06-10-2021),  boilermeschew827 (06-12-2021),  Coldmountains (06-10-2021),  Helves (06-10-2021),  hokkanto (06-11-2021),  JoeyP37 (06-11-2021),  leonardo (06-10-2021),  Megalophias (06-10-2021),  Michał (06-20-2021),  parasar (06-20-2021),  Ryukendo (06-11-2021),  Zelto (06-11-2021)

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