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Thread: Baltic R1a - five years later

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    Somewhat related but do we think Finnish CWC belonged to Balto-Slavic like R1a or Germanic like R1a?

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    Quote Originally Posted by davit View Post
    Somewhat related but do we think Finnish CWC belonged to Balto-Slavic like R1a or Germanic like R1a?
    We have no ancient dna from CWC Finnland but CWC Baltic was Pre-Z284 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y2395/ so it looks in my eyes likely that CWC Finland was Pre-Z284 too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    We have no ancient dna from CWC Finnland but CWC Baltic was Pre-Z284 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y2395/ so it looks in my eyes likely that CWC Finland was Pre-Z284 too.
    There will never be very old samples from Finland unless some alternative way of extracting ancient DNA is used as the soil eats bones after about 2000 years. There might be some samples from right across the Russian border which has far more suitable conditions for preservation. There is little evidence for any kind of R1a continuity in Finland but by the look of things YP1147 under https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y10805/ might be old enough to qualify at least hypothetically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Standardized Ape View Post
    There will never be very old samples from Finland unless some alternative way of extracting ancient DNA is used as the soil eats bones after about 2000 years. There might be some samples from right across the Russian border which has far more suitable conditions for preservation. There is little evidence for any kind of R1a continuity in Finland but by the look of things YP1147 under https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y10805/ might be old enough to qualify at least hypothetically.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    We have no ancient dna from CWC Finnland but CWC Baltic was Pre-Z284 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y2395/ so it looks in my eyes likely that CWC Finland was Pre-Z284 too.
    Z284, Z280, and M458 are on the same level? And Z92?

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    Quote Originally Posted by davit View Post
    Z284, Z280, and M458 are on the same level? And Z92?
    No.
    Z284 i am not sure, but Z280 and M458 are about on same-ish level. Z280 got two main kids - CTS1211 and Z92.

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    According to Raisa Denisova publication 1995 in Latvian (leading Latvian anthropologist) in the 1st Millenium AD there were two main migration events that shaped population of Latvia and Lithuania:
    1) Barrows with Stone Circles 1-4 centuries - her explanation is that those were West Baltic tribes that got pushed away by Goths. <I believe it was syncretic WB and island Finnic (N-L-1025) affair. Where this likely bilingual, L1025 dominated population spread accross Northern Lithuania and Southern Latvia. Don’t know which R1a participated.
    2) Flat Graves 5+ centuries - since earliest Flat Graves seem to have appeared in Lithuania last quarter of 4th century (375 Hunns destroy Goths), then she explains it as most Southern Balts escaping Hunns. She also writes - guys buried in Flat Graves were anthropologically different from previous Stone Circles. They had more Baltic type. Previous population was narrow faced.

    Also she wrote that all movement in the first millenium into Latvia happened exclusively via Lithuania. But still contradicts herself saying that some Kryviches like folk arrived also into Latgale, therefore Latgale Latgalians differed from Vidzeme Latgalians. <I am Latgalian, wonder if I get more “Slavic”/Avar_Szolad than standard Latvian >

    Some other interesting notes/events:
    1) she is saying 6-5 centuries BCE some Neuri tribes left Upper Southern Bug and moved North to Pripyat because of Scythians.
    2) 3 century BCE Sarmatians were destroying Budins’ Middle Dnieper Hillforts and even left traces in Pripyat basin. Still even 2 century BCE Ptolemay mentions Bodin mountains/hills between Tanais (Don) and Borisfen (Dnieper).
    3) it seems that even if East Balts left for Lithuania to escape Hunns, still they had to fight them 5/6 century, because some burials contain steppe arrows.

    Given all this one can state that Latvian genetics was a result of several major populations:
    1) WB (and likely Baltic Finn syncretic?) Barrows with Stone Circles (LVA_BA largely + N-L1015)
    2) East Baltic Flat Graves from South (Avar_Szolad-ish? Different types of CTS_1211?)
    + whoever lived there before, in general lands were sparsely populated except East Lithuania where Brushed Pottery tribes served as a substrate to Stone Circle Barrows...
    + perhaps some Kryviches related folk in East Latvia, Latgale
    + some people between Estonians and Mordvins genetically who apparently lived NE Latvia

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    The resolution of subclades in Saag et al. 2019 was pretty low. But according to this blog, the two Iron Age Ingrian samples belonged to R1a-CTS1211+ Y35. VII15 (45 BC-77 AD) and VIII8 (75-200 AD).
    https://terheninenmaa.blogspot.com/2...a-aspects.html

    Quote Originally Posted by parastais View Post
    1) Barrows with Stone Circles 1-4 centuries - her explanation is that those were West Baltic tribes that got pushed away by Goths. <I believe it was syncretic WB and island Finnic (N-L-1025) affair. Where this likely bilingual, L1025 dominated population spread accross Northern Lithuania and Southern Latvia. Don’t know which R1a participated.
    What island Finnics do you think brought N-L1025 to West Balts? My understanding is that most Baltic islands look Germanic by material culture, with the exception of Saaremaa. Especially those farther south, across from Lithuania.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelto View Post
    The resolution of subclades in Saag et al. 2019 was pretty low. But according to this blog, the two Iron Age Ingrian samples belonged to R1a-CTS1211+ Y35. VII15 (45 BC-77 AD) and VIII8 (75-200 AD).
    https://terheninenmaa.blogspot.com/2...a-aspects.html



    What island Finnics do you think brought N-L1025 to West Balts? My understanding is that most Baltic islands look Germanic by material culture, with the exception of Saaremaa. Especially those farther south, across from Lithuania.
    Not really to (all or most) West Balts. Basically in West Lithuanian coast some Northern parts of West Baltic Barrows got replaced by Barrows with Stone Circles and from there it spread around sparsely populated Latvia and Lithuania. Burials were different (but with some similarities), L1025 was present, but I think pottery was West Baltic.
    West Baltic cultures in Prussia and South of Lithuania continued their normal ways.

    But as to which island Finnic, answer is I don’t know, Saaremaa to Curonian coast to West Lithuania? But I have not found any good literature on it. Only assumed because I think it was the best candidate culture for L-1025 founder effect in Balts, plus this culture had L1025 3rd century AD.

    Edit:
    “ There is no unanimous opinion concerning the cultural transition from the Early Iron Age barrows of the West Balts to the Roman period (or Old Iron Age (1st—4thcenturies)) West Lithuanian cemeteries with stone circles. In the rarely encountered single cemete* ries that have both types of burial sites, the two types are spatially distant from one another, as if the people buryingtheirdeadinthe1stcenturywishedtostress their separation from the pre-Roman barrows’2” (Rasa Banyte-Rowell)
    https://etalpykla.lituanistikadb.lt/...4522564108.pdf
    Last edited by parastais; 06-11-2021 at 08:36 PM.

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    I think Coldmountains is really putting it out there saying Baltics were Z284, when modern samples that are Y2395+ Z284- are found almost exclusively in western Europe and Scandinavia. One such clade, YP3896, is found in Lower Saxony, which most likely means Z284 entered Scandinavia from the south and south west through Jutland and any Y2395 in the Baltics were vagrants from Sweden. The Baltics were most likely Z280, the R1a clade that dominates there today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyP37 View Post
    I think Coldmountains is really putting it out there saying Baltics were Z284, when modern samples that are Y2395+ Z284- are found almost exclusively in western Europe and Scandinavia. One such clade, YP3896, is found in Lower Saxony, which most likely means Z284 entered Scandinavia from the south and south west through Jutland and any Y2395 in the Baltics were vagrants from Sweden. The Baltics were most likely Z280, the R1a clade that dominates there today.
    Two CWC Baltic samples (Gyvakarai1_10bp and Kunila2) dated around 2500 B.C were R-Y2395, which is just upstream of Z284. Both also lacked Balto-Slavic drift so yes there was Pre-Z284 in both CWC Scandinavia and CWC Baltic maybe because of some migrations between these regions or because of Proto-CWC clans with these lines moving independently into Scandinavia and the Baltics but way or another CWC Baltic does not seem to be R1a-Z280. Spiginas2 (Z280), which is labelled as CWC Baltic is already from 2000 B.C so rather Post-CWC and genetically very distinct from earlier CWC samples in the Baltics.

    Also if we have learnt one thing in the last years here than that modern-day or even Iron Age distribution of Y-DNA is often entirely different from the distribution of Y-DNA clades in the Bronze Age and Neolithic. Remember how most researches and most here were certain that Yamnaya is R1a-Z93 and Fatyanovo mostly R1a-Z280 based on modern/medieval Y-DNA distribution what both turned out to be very wrong. If there are doubts we should always rather look at ancient than at modern Y-DNA distribution.

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018...rthern-europe/

    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2017...ithic-estonia/

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