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Thread: Why are Punjabi so diverse in comparison to Sindhis and Kashmiris?

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    Why are Punjabi so diverse in comparison to Sindhis and Kashmiris?

    There is great genotype diversity in Punjab compared to it's nearby neighbours such as Sindh and Kashmir. Sindh has a homogeneous genetic profile for the most part, and the same goes for Kashmir. However, in Punjab, you have essentially four varying populations:

    SPGT types: Arain, Khatri/Arora, and perhaps Kamboj?

    PGW types: Jatts

    Biraderi types: Gujjar, Rajput, Pothoharis, Tarkhan, Saini, Brahmin.

    PJL types: Chamar, Chuhra, Baniyas.

    Now I can understand that the SPGT types, Jatts, and Baniyas are all later migrants to the region and that explains their divergence from the other Punjabi types. However, what explains the divergence between Biraderis and the PJL types, who I'm assuming are both native Punjabi? Why is this divergence not seen in Sindh or Kashmir? Did the PJL types arrive later? Or were they isolated in the initial mixing events?

    Kashmir's isolation due to the valley may be attributed to them being homogeneous, however, what about Sindh? Why is it so homogeneous despite being a fertile plain similar to Punjab, barring the Baloch-admixed individuals?
    Last edited by desi; 06-03-2021 at 05:14 AM.

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    Punjab has most published samples compared to other regions right now, therefore enough to capture endogamy in that region but these are still not enough. We are missing Saraiki region from Pakistan Punjab and Indian Punjab samples are biased towards biradri, most recently published Sikh samples for example.

    Published Sindhi samples don't appear to be homogeneous, plotting these samples on PCA shows they all have large divergence from one other, maybe someone can explain why. They are Gujar-like to Baloch-like, Pashtun-like to Khatri-like, more through sampling from this region will eventually form a cline with currently published samples and Meghawal, Bhil-like and PJL-like populations.

    Kashmir valley is another undersampled region like others. We are missing Kishtwari samples. Along with Waza/Valmiki/Bangi/Sheikh etc from valley who are SC. We will see endomony cline here as well.
    Last edited by Observer; 06-03-2021 at 10:00 AM.

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    What is SPGT and PJW etc?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Observer View Post
    Published Sindhi samples don't appear to be homogeneous, plotting these samples on PCA shows they all have large divergence from one other, maybe someone can explain why. They are Gujar-like to Baloch-like, Pashtun-like to Khatri-like, more through sampling from this region will eventually form a cline with currently published samples and Meghawal, Bhil-like and PJL-like populations.
    The OP does have a point though. Ignoring the ones with obvious Baloch and/or African ancestry, the bulk of Sindhis are either Gujjar-Like (rural) or Khatri/Arora/Lohana-like (urban) as can be seen in the similarity index below (All the samples with distances > 3 have varying amounts of African ancestry). You're right that further sampling from eastern Sindh/Thar should add some Meghawal and Bhil like samples, but these groups are relatively small in number and won't shift the genetic profile by much. 90% of the settled population of Sindhi has always been located within 50 miles of the Indus.

    A plausible reason for Sindh being relatively more homogenous than Punjab is that it's geographically much more isolated in comparison. The only real entry points into Sindh are from the north or via the coast on the west, as its blocked by the Cholistan desert/Thar on the east and the Arabian sea on the South.


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    Quote Originally Posted by heksindhi View Post
    The OP does have a point though. Ignoring the ones with obvious Baloch and/or African ancestry, the bulk of Sindhis are either Gujjar-Like (rural) or Khatri/Arora/Lohana-like (urban) as can be seen in the similarity index below (All the samples with distances > 3 have varying amounts of African ancestry). You're right that further sampling from eastern Sindh/Thar should add some Meghawal and Bhil like samples, but these groups are relatively small in number and won't shift the genetic profile by much. 90% of the settled population of Sindhi has always been located within 50 miles of the Indus.

    A plausible reason for Sindh being relatively more homogenous than Punjab is that it's geographically much more isolated in comparison. The only real entry points into Sindh are from the north or via the coast on the west, as its blocked by the Cholistan desert/Thar on the east and the Arabian sea on the South.

    Have you had any chance to run or have come across a Mohanna sample?
    I have seen studies mention them for a very high R1a1%age, but not much if any autosomal.

    "the Mohanna reported here are a group of fishermen who reside in the Sindh province.
    Very little is known about their history, but it is believed that
    they were the original inhabitants of the Indian subcontinent
    who were subsequently replaced by different invading ethnic
    groups. Today, little pockets of this ethnic group still exist in
    the Sindh province of Pakistan around the river Indus."
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...tions/download

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shujauddin View Post
    What is SPGT and PJW etc?
    SPGT - Swat Protohistoric Grave Type (aka Gandhara Grave Culture), caucasian shifted.

    PGW - Painted Grey Ware culture, steppe shifted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Observer View Post
    Punjab has most published samples compared to other regions right now, therefore enough to capture endogamy in that region but these are still not enough. We are missing Saraiki region from Pakistan Punjab and Indian Punjab samples are biased towards biradri, most recently published Sikh samples for example.

    Published Sindhi samples don't appear to be homogeneous, plotting these samples on PCA shows they all have large divergence from one other, maybe someone can explain why. They are Gujar-like to Baloch-like, Pashtun-like to Khatri-like, more through sampling from this region will eventually form a cline with currently published samples and Meghawal, Bhil-like and PJL-like populations.

    Kashmir valley is another undersampled region like others. We are missing Kishtwari samples. Along with Waza/Valmiki/Bangi/Sheikh etc from valley who are SC. We will see endomony cline here as well.
    The Sindhi samples that are Baloch and Pashtun like are admixed and are thus explainable, the difference between the Khatri and Gujjar like profiles is not as extreme to describe it as significant divergence imo - it's akin to the variation one would see among the biraderis.

    Undersampling definitely may be the reason for the perceived discrepancy, however as @heksindhi mentioned, most of the Sindhi population (90%) would still belong to a homogeneous profile, and I expect the same for Kashmir. In East Punjab however, you have more than 1/3 of the population belonging to the PJL D spectrum, and that is a significant and extreme divergence. I can't comment on West Punjab, but the PJL A/B and PJL C/D samples reflect similar extreme variation.

    If geography is the ultimate factor, are the PJL D types later migrants or were they simply isolated during the initial mixing? I'm led to believe the former is the case here, given that Punjab became very casteless/egalitarian during the Buddhist period, and is when I believe the biraderi's probably formed and homogenized.
    Last edited by desi; 06-03-2021 at 10:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by desi View Post
    SPGT - Swat Protohistoric Grave Type (aka Gandhara Grave Culture), caucasian shifted.

    PGW - Painted Grey Ware culture, steppe shifted.
    Do we have any samples from PGW cultures?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kapisa View Post
    Do we have any samples from PGW cultures?
    No, just speculation based on the present populations living in that region. There are ghost pops created by @pegasus which fit well:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post692282
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post766627
    Last edited by desi; 06-04-2021 at 02:28 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kapisa View Post
    Do we have any samples from PGW cultures?
    Depends on whether they practiced cremations like the Cemetery H culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by desi View Post
    SPGT types
    Why is that term used so much? It's quite clear that those "SPGT" are not ancestral or directly related to any population in Punjab. The SPGT uniparetal landscape is very different: steppe mtDNA with local YDNA, whereas in Punjab it's the exact opposite. Also, their Neolithic breakdown reveals significant CHG admixture (as in Pashtuns), which is mostly lacking in Punjab. These SPGT were probably ancestral to Pashtuns (their source of IVC, in fact).

    Edit: the other terms are wishy washy too:
    - "biraderi types". Arain, Kamboh and Jatt is a biradari. Not sure if Khatri consider themseleves to be one. Pretty sure Chamar consider themsleves to be a biradari too. Biradari is a just a community/tribe in Punjab.
    - PJL: Arain are also PJL. So are Rajputs and Jatts etc. A significant amount of Punjabi in Lahore (PJL) dataset scores like Arain, many others like Rajputs etc. It's pretty silly to throw that word around for only one type of people (AASI shifted ones). As far as I'm aware, PJL are the only samples specifically from a city in South Asia. If there was a sample taken in Karachi, Delhi, Amritsar or Chandhigarh, you'd also find a very wide range of peoples from high AASI to low AASI.
    Last edited by Samand; 06-04-2021 at 07:34 PM.

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