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Thread: De 4000 BC a 1000 BC de prehistoria en la península Ibérica (siglo más, siglo menos)

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by mokordo View Post
    Si pudiéramos buscar todos o muchos esos samples en el G25 u otros datasheets de diferentes calculadores de Gedmatch, podríamos hacer un modelo sobre el tema.

    Es un tema muy propio de Gaska (un antiguo miembro de este foro y que creo que está en Eupedia ahora), igual hasta ese post es suyo.
    Un afectuoso saludo, mokordo!

    El mapa "céltico" lo subió el forero bicicleur. Yo le agregué los puntos con datos genéticos sacados de una página de indoeuropeo. No estoy seguro, pero posiblemente gaska esté baneado .

    A mi me resulta muy interesante ver cómo los R1b estepeños de lengua IE (indoeuropea) o PIE (pre-indoeuropea PIE) van avanzando por europa desde el este. No hay rastro de ellos en el eneolithic y en el early chalcolithic sólo aparecen en Croacia. En el late chalcolithic inundan el centro de Europa, las islas británicas, Francia y nuestra península. Fíjate que su distribución no es uniforme en toda la península, sino que coincide con la zona celta y celtibérica de finales del 1er milenio BC. No hay restos ni en el País Vasco ni en Cataluña, por donde hipotéticamente deberían haber entrado a la península y que son territorios no-indoeuropeo. Cuando vi el mapa Hallstatt de toda Europa me decidí a añadirle los puntos y todo parece muy coherente. Está claro que los celtas de Hallastatt deberían ser descendientes de los IE y aquí se ve claro. Si tengo tiempo seguiré añadiendo los muchos datos que faltan pero ya te adelanto que todos quedan dentro de la zona amarilla del mapa. Fíjate también que esa conexión entre R1b's (Iberia-centro de Europa) está interrumpida por tierra pero ¿y por mar? en 2500 BC sabían navegar muy bien. El Arquero de Amesbury (Inglaterra, 2300 BC) había nacido en los Alpes y esa gente entraron en las islas y dieron un vuelco genético.

    Las samples se saben cuáles son, de hecho yo puse las fuentes (Olalde 2018, Olalde 2019, Furtwaengler 2020, etc.) y se pueden buscar. Si me dices cómo, podría ayudarte a buscarlas en G25 para que hicieras el modelo.

  2. #32
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  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadogowah View Post
    ¡De ahí las saqué yo!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadogowah View Post

    Como es interactivo, puedes jugar con las muestras.

    Si tienes tiempo, prueba a apagar todas las capas, concéntrate en Europa y activa la capa ydna del early chalcolithic. Verás que no hay nada de R1b-IE ni en Iberia, ni en Francia, ni en las islas británicas. Ahora apaga esa capa y activa la de ydna del late chalcolithic, verás como se inunda todo de muestras R1b-IE.

  7. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by castrogonzalo View Post
    Un afectuoso saludo, mokordo!

    El mapa "céltico" lo subió el forero bicicleur. Yo le agregué los puntos con datos genéticos sacados de una página de indoeuropeo. No estoy seguro, pero posiblemente gaska esté baneado .

    A mi me resulta muy interesante ver cómo los R1b estepeños de lengua IE (indoeuropea) o PIE (pre-indoeuropea PIE) van avanzando por europa desde el este. No hay rastro de ellos en el eneolithic y en el early chalcolithic sólo aparecen en Croacia. En el late chalcolithic inundan el centro de Europa, las islas británicas, Francia y nuestra península. Fíjate que su distribución no es uniforme en toda la península, sino que coincide con la zona celta y celtibérica de finales del 1er milenio BC. No hay restos ni en el País Vasco ni en Cataluña, por donde hipotéticamente deberían haber entrado a la península y que son territorios no-indoeuropeo. Cuando vi el mapa Hallstatt de toda Europa me decidí a añadirle los puntos y todo parece muy coherente. Está claro que los celtas de Hallastatt deberían ser descendientes de los IE y aquí se ve claro. Si tengo tiempo seguiré añadiendo los muchos datos que faltan pero ya te adelanto que todos quedan dentro de la zona amarilla del mapa. Fíjate también que esa conexión entre R1b's (Iberia-centro de Europa) está interrumpida por tierra pero ¿y por mar? en 2500 BC sabían navegar muy bien. El Arquero de Amesbury (Inglaterra, 2300 BC) había nacido en los Alpes y esa gente entraron en las islas y dieron un vuelco genético.

    Las samples se saben cuáles son, de hecho yo puse las fuentes (Olalde 2018, Olalde 2019, Furtwaengler 2020, etc.) y se pueden buscar. Si me dices cómo, podría ayudarte a buscarlas en G25 para que hicieras el modelo.
    No se si estoy diciendo una perogrullada pero creo que llegaron costeando por mar desde el Mediterráneo (estos si) buscando bronce y estaño y que así es como penetraron por el sudeste de España y sur de Portugal (Cerro de la Virgen y Zambujal) unos cuantos siglos después ya se habrían extendido por toda Andalucía.
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  9. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadogowah View Post
    No se si estoy diciendo una perogrullada pero creo que llegaron costeando por mar desde el Mediterráneo (estos si) buscando bronce y estaño y que así es como penetraron por el sudeste de España y sur de Portugal (Cerro de la Virgen y Zambujal) unos cuantos siglos después ya se habrían extendido por toda Andalucía.
    Algunos datos sobre la navegación en 2500 BC. Esto lo escribí en otro foro.

    Interesting news about prehistoric naviagation, a very important human discovery not always recognised. The log-boat (a boat made from a hollowed tree) was around 5.5 m length. Several logboats have been securely dated in Ireland as early as the Early Bronze Age (c.2500 BC). Some of them with about 12 m with a large crew of 10-12 men. Another type, sewn-plank boats were large boats, up to 18 m in length with room for a crew of 20 or more, and with a greater freeboard than logboats; overall they are likely to have been capable of successful seafaring journeys.

    Como referencia, La Niña cruzó el Atlántico con 21 m de eslora y una tripulación de 20 hombres, 4000 años después.

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    Quote Originally Posted by castrogonzalo View Post
    Algunos datos sobre la navegación en 2500 BC. Esto lo escribí en otro foro.

    Interesting news about prehistoric naviagation, a very important human discovery not always recognised. The log-boat (a boat made from a hollowed tree) was around 5.5 m length. Several logboats have been securely dated in Ireland as early as the Early Bronze Age (c.2500 BC). Some of them with about 12 m with a large crew of 10-12 men. Another type, sewn-plank boats were large boats, up to 18 m in length with room for a crew of 20 or more, and with a greater freeboard than logboats; overall they are likely to have been capable of successful seafaring journeys.

    Como referencia, La Niña cruzó el Atlántico con 21 m de eslora y una tripulación de 20 hombres, 4000 años después.
    Y con brújulas, astrolabios y conocimientos de cartografía (Y patrones de viento!) mucho más avanzados. (No se trata solo de tener buenos barcos).

    Cruzar el Canal de la Mancha o estrecho de San Jorge es una cosa pero cruzar el Atlántico es ya otra cosa mucho más seria.
    Last edited by Shadogowah; 08-02-2021 at 02:30 PM.
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  12. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by castrogonzalo View Post

    I have plotted 3000-2000 BCE R1b individuals in the @bicicleur map (Spain, France and Switzerland). Obviously, data fit the Hallstatt territory. In Iberia seems that these IE or PIE people control the Atlantic shore and the non-IE people control the Mediterranean shore.
    Mapa actualizado con datos de Europa:

    R1b_map3.jpg

  13. #39
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    Para variar, un modelito antiguo, a ver quien gana en "bronze age invaders".

    Podría ser el nombre de un videojuego...

    Code:
    Neolithic_Europe:Iberia_N,0.1239407,0.1755737,0.0341921,-0.0626261,0.0768007,-0.0339317,-0.004439,-0.0011793,0.0618117,0.0996021,0.0021292,0.015586,-0.0343077,-0.0108723,-0.0189858,-0.0058929,0.0074029,0.001844,0.0048463,-0.0070036,0.002468,0.0035996,-0.008148,-0.0235909,9.3e-05
    Neolithic_Europe:BGR_N,0.120368,0.183049,0.0082968,-0.086241,0.0510865,-0.0429492,0.00235,-0.002942,0.0388085,0.085742,0.0137622,0.0133382,-0.0244175,-0.0001377,-0.0350498,-0.0144855,0.0216762,0.0030408,0.007982,-0.0117242,-0.0129145,0.0094902,-0.0033585,-0.0052118,-0.005269
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    Neolithic_Europe:GRC_N,0.118376,0.18178,-0.001131,-0.105622,0.057241,-0.051037,-0.00423,-0.003923,0.039064,0.090207,0.003735,0.013638,-0.019177,-0.007569,-0.046959,-0.004243,0.040028,0.003927,0.004022,-0.013506,-0.012228,0.014096,0.00037,0.001325,-0.004311
    Neolithic_Europe:HUN_Starcevo_N,0.122246,0.1886854,0.0077688,-0.0985152,0.0593956,-0.0521526,-0.0032432,-0.0068304,0.0448726,0.0865622,0.008217,0.0126786,-0.0229534,0.0046514,-0.0378388,-0.0226466,0.0074318,0.002179,0.0110612,-0.0154824,-0.0138756,0.0108072,-0.0017254,-0.0052776,-0.0043348
    Neolithic_Europe:ITA_Sardinia_N,0.1201974,0.1748742,0.0429918,-0.0535534,0.0780454,-0.029172,-0.006392,0.0015692,0.0629932,0.094289,0.0031506,0.0159756,-0.0350544,-0.0134594,-0.0193538,-0.0040042,0.0115,-0.0011148,0.0076926,-0.008329,0.0036184,0.003586,-0.015258,-0.0290884,0.0016286
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    Bronze_Age_Invaders::BN10,0.1160995,0.0872339,0.0400881,0.1102730,-0.0310825,0.0437021,0.0032196,-0.0054228,-0.0573076,-0.0751905,-0.0004059,-0.0022330,-0.0009812,-0.0235335,0.0315685,0.0104348,-0.0031815,-0.0024704,-0.0011188,0.0094544,-0.0050411,0.0015704,0.0124357,0.0203281,-0.0051253
    Levant:PPNB,0.0725625,0.1650235,-0.0309238,-0.1380835,0.0323138,-0.062541,-0.012103,-0.0141338,0.0735775,0.0367207,0.0194055,-0.0170098,0.036459,-0.000241,-0.021342,0.0067288,0.0089638,-0.0013935,-0.0054052,0.0192277,-0.0037435,0.007852,-0.0014175,-0.0062658,-0.0047002
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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by mokordo View Post

    Code:
    Neolithic_Europe:Iberia_N,0.1239407,0.1755737,0.0341921,-0.0626261,0.0768007,-0.0339317,-0.004439,-0.0011793,0.0618117,0.0996021,0.0021292,0.015586,-0.0343077,-0.0108723,-0.0189858,-0.0058929,0.0074029,0.001844,0.0048463,-0.0070036,0.002468,0.0035996,-0.008148,-0.0235909,9.3e-05
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    Neolithic_Europe:Wales_N,0.12236,0.1675625,0.0494025,-0.0421515,0.0829385,-0.0207775,-0.003995,-0.000808,0.0583915,0.085013,-0.002111,0.0109405,-0.031665,-0.0063305,-0.0109935,-0.00716,0.0065845,0.002217,-0.0023885,-0.004752,0.014911,0.006677,-0.0162075,-0.0409095,-0.001916
    Neolithic_Europe:Scotland_N,0.1269127,0.1690178,0.0542928,-0.0322677,0.0862828,-0.0224879,-0.0037679,0.0030922,0.0634297,0.0853533,-0.0002544,0.0123091,-0.0271157,-0.0115236,-0.0072611,0.0027269,0.0076274,0.0045017,0.0042653,-0.0041436,0.0120538,0.0032151,-0.0154018,-0.0339485,-0.0001358
    Neolithic_Europe:England_N,0.1257112,0.1700446,0.0558139,-0.0370732,0.0841866,-0.0225592,-0.0048307,0.0018717,0.0641522,0.0895791,0.0026342,0.013388,-0.0261313,-0.0128294,-0.0092139,0.0046407,0.0148638,0.0027167,0.0030586,-0.000264,0.0108697,0.0025142,-0.014379,-0.031477,0.0003326
    Bronze_Age_Invaders:AN10,0.1242948,0.0883510,0.0436707,0.1151505,-0.0285283,0.0451246,0.0043710,-0.0021923,-0.0563668,-0.0732041,0.0018024,0.0009291,-0.0029287,-0.0225426,0.0358843,0.0144389,-0.0011735,-0.0042316,-0.0040350,0.0123809,-0.0037808,0.0000741,0.0072346,0.0193519,-0.0029337
    Bronze_Age_Invaders::BN10,0.1160995,0.0872339,0.0400881,0.1102730,-0.0310825,0.0437021,0.0032196,-0.0054228,-0.0573076,-0.0751905,-0.0004059,-0.0022330,-0.0009812,-0.0235335,0.0315685,0.0104348,-0.0031815,-0.0024704,-0.0011188,0.0094544,-0.0050411,0.0015704,0.0124357,0.0203281,-0.0051253
    Levant:PPNB,0.0725625,0.1650235,-0.0309238,-0.1380835,0.0323138,-0.062541,-0.012103,-0.0141338,0.0735775,0.0367207,0.0194055,-0.0170098,0.036459,-0.000241,-0.021342,0.0067288,0.0089638,-0.0013935,-0.0054052,0.0192277,-0.0037435,0.007852,-0.0014175,-0.0062658,-0.0047002
    North_Africa_Neolithic:MAR_EN+LN,-0.0759773,0.1200863,-0.0112193,-0.0894710,0.0378528,-0.0570333,-0.0535235,0.0151150,0.1169368,0.0292488,0.0211918,-0.0123268,0.0390605,-0.0375368,0.0368480,-0.0119330,0.0249358,-0.0347760,-0.0913508,0.0167893,-0.0282940,-0.0701110,0.0472043,-0.0099110,0.0087120
    Ancient_Africa:CMR_Shum_Laka_3000BP,-0.6129375,0.0528075,0.013765,0.0272935,0.000769,-0.001813,0.1482915,-0.1137645,0.00542,0.004374,-0.001056,-0.0400145,-0.025272,0.0019955,0.008279,-0.0068285,0.005802,0.016153,-0.0067245,0.0010005,-0.001934,-0.0020405,-0.00456,0.000482,-0.006586
    Ancient_Africa:CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP,-0.602693,0.055346,0.0148965,0.0263245,-0.0064625,0.00502,0.1243205,-0.099919,0.0138055,-0.007016,-0.00065,-0.0242785,-0.0203665,-0.0052295,0.0021035,-0.00179,0.0127125,0.017356,-0.0011945,-0.0040645,-0.003494,-0.000371,0.0016025,-0.0009035,-0.0020955
    Target: gixajo_scaled
    Distance: 2.2469% / 0.02246910

    64.6 Neolithic_Europe
    32.0 Bronze_Age_Invaders
    3.4 North_Africa_Neolithic

    Target: gixajo_dad_scaled
    Distance: 2.0265% / 0.02026504

    64.8 Neolithic_Europe
    29.8 Bronze_Age_Invaders
    4.4 North_Africa_Neolithic
    1.0 Ancient_Africa

    Target: gixajo_mom_scaled
    Distance: 3.1374% / 0.03137402

    64.8 Neolithic_Europe
    33.4 Bronze_Age_Invaders
    1.8 North_Africa_Neolithic

  16. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to mokordo For This Useful Post:

     alejandromb92 (08-03-2021),  JJJ (08-03-2021),  Pedro Ruben (08-03-2021)

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