Results 1 to 7 of 7

Thread: The history of Southern Yeniseian peoples

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    636
    Sex

    Netherlands Kenya

    The history of Southern Yeniseian peoples

    Sup folks,

    I'm currently looking into information regarding the origin, lives, and eventual demise of the southern Yeniseian people. Personally I find this a highly interesting and underrated topic; not just amongst us internet weirdos, but also within acacemia. The amount of information I have been able to come across is extremely limited, and has not been able to answer my questions suffciently.

    One bit I find kind of a headscratcher is how when it comes to bronze and iron age Siberia, there really isn't much mention of them at all. For example I've seen the Glazkovo culture being described as ancestral to Tungus and Turkic peoples even, but never Yeniseian. Samoyedic is more frequently mentioned in the context of Iron age Siberia. When it comes to the Hunno-Sarmatian period, no mentioning of Yeniseians ever, just Scytho-Siberians followed by Turko-Mongolic peoples.

    On first glance this might seem logical, after all we only know of Yeniseian speakers living in small populaion sizes with similar lifestyles to their neighbours and by the time they enter historical records, most of them were already on their way to becoming assimilated amongst the Kyrgyz (later Khakass and Chulyms). But, when you look at the proposed timeframe of Proto-Yeniseian and their proposed linguistic homeland, it becomes a little odd.

    Consider the distribution of these hydronyms:
     




    If they lived there during the LBA/IA, then is this lack of mentioning warranted? It would mean that they were the most proximate neighbours of early Scytho-Siberians, and likely would've had signfiicant interactions with them. And there was a continuous persistence of such populations until the Russian colonisation of the region.

    Anyhow, what I'm really after is the few historical descriptions we have of this people. Not being a Russian speaker myself and mostly limited to google translate, this can be a bit of a task, partially for the reasons mentioned above I suppose. I'm particularly interested in the Yeniseian peoples who weren't hunter-fishers, but nomads or cattle breeders, as they were still around during the 17th and 18th century AD.

    Some examples:

    Arins:
    Аринцы были кочевники, жили в юртах, имели лошадей, крупный ро*гатый скот и овец. В большом количестве они собирали сарану и курлык. Возможно, что у них были и пашни. Занимались аринцы также охотой и рыболовством.
    Google translate:
    The Arintsy were nomads, lived in yurts, had horses, cattle and sheep. They collected a large number of sarana and kurlyk. It is possible that they also had arable land. The Arinians were also engaged in hunting and fishing.
    Buklins:
    племя скотоводов и коневодов, говоривших на языке кетской группы. Обитало в 17 в. на правобережье Енисея в низовьях рек Б. и М. Дербиных, Сисим, Комы, Анаша и Сыды. В 30-40-х гг. 17 в. назв. "Б." сменяется назв. "яринцы". Числ. Б. в нач. 17 в. - ок. 500 чел. К наст. времени вошли в состав хакасов. Возможно, что т. н. байкотовцы тоже первоначально составляли часть Б.
    Google Translate:
    a tribe of pastoralists and horse breeders who spoke the language of the Ket group . Lived in the 17th century . on the right bank of the Yenisei River in the lower reaches of the rivers B . and M . Derbins , Sisim , Coma , Anasha and Sydy . In the 30 - 40 - x years . 17 in . titles . " B. "the name is changed . " yarintsy ". Num . B . in the beginning . 17 in . - approx . 500 people . To the present . time included in the composition of the Khakas . Perhaps , that t . n . baykotovtsy also originally formed part of the B .
    Fun fact: The lifestyle of these peoples really influenced the way they entered the historical records. The tribes which were predominantly foragers (or even raindeer herders) were generally referred to as Ostyaks, but the ones towards the south with more of a nomadic lifestyle were referred to as Tatars. It took linguists a while to figure out Yeniseian wasn't actually a divergent Samoyedic language.

    Luckily I know some Russian people and someone recommended Долгих Б.О. – Родовой и племенной состав народов Сибири в XVII веке to me (particular chapter XV), which is where the quote regarding the Arins came from. This book is freely accessible online. Unfortunately 10mb size limits are in the way of my quest for knowledge. I guess the works of Gerhard Friedrich Miller from the 18th century would be helpful in my endeavour as well.

    Which brings me to the ultimate point of this thread: I'm gonna need your helps guys. Anyone who can speak Russian or just in general has a better knowledge of the history of these regions could really help me out here.

    I'm also looking for anything linguistics related - en Anglais the only things I can come across are Edward Vajda's works, which are mostly centered around the Ket. Not to mention the likes of Vovin when it comes to the topic of Yeniseian speakers amongst the Xiongnu, and Later Zhao dynasty. I can't seem to find much of the people "in the middle" of those two.

    It would be interesting to find out if the nomadic pastoralism amongst the historical Southern Yeniseians was due to influence from their Turkic neighbours, or if it was a relic from an earlier age by way of Iranic speaking nomads. We can definitly tell there was a transfer of pastoral lifestyles to the native inhabitants of the Altai-Sayan region way back in the bronze age, but we can't say if they were Yeniseian or not.

    It might be similar to the Magyar, who have linguistic influences from both but the more recent influence, Turkic, being more promiment when it comes to nomadic terminology. If we take the position of Vovin it seems obvious you would've had some degree of Yeniseian speaking nomads in the iron age, but given the lack of information I am not sure if the there was a continuous presence of horse riding Yeniseian nomads from that point until the 17th century AD, or if peoples such as the Arin only began horsing around during the middle ages for example.

    The purpose of this thread is to compile information through historical sources (mostly Yasak records), linguistics, archaeology, Turkic folklore etc. Some speculation regarding the homeland, and population genetics are more than welcome of course. Eventually most of these people were assimilated into Russian and Siberian Turkic peoples such as the Khakass, Shors, Chulyms, Tofalars etc. it would be interesting to find some ethnographies of tribes which supposedly were the direct descendants of the last southern Yeniseians.

    Cheers!
    Last edited by CopperAxe; 06-16-2021 at 12:41 AM.

  2. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to CopperAxe For This Useful Post:

     Alain (06-16-2021),  altvred (06-23-2021),  Ryukendo (06-16-2021)

  3. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    636
    Sex

    Netherlands Kenya
    On the ru.wikipedia article on the Arin, I came across this quote:
    Слово «аринцы» происходит, по замечанию Г. Ф. Миллера, от тюркского слова «ара» — оса. В хакасском фольклоре отмечается, что в древности они были сильными и могучими, подобно тому, как рой ос преследует стадо, жалит и гонит, они также гнали, кололи и убивали многие народы. По хакасской мифологии, аринцы в древности были многочисленны и высокомерно относились к окружающим народам. На их прародине, около горы Кум-Тигей, обитало несметное количество змей. Аринцы, не пропуская ни одной, рубили их саблями. Змеиный царь (хак. — Чылан-хан) объявил аринцам войну, в ходе которой аринцы были практически истреблены. Подобный мифический сюжет о борьбе скифов со змеями и их гибели зафиксирован в истории Геродота.
    The word "Arintsy" comes, according to G. F. Miller , from the Türkic word "ara" - wasp. In Khakass folklore, it is noted that in ancient times they were strong and mighty, just as a swarm of wasps pursues a herd, stings and drives, they also drove, stabbed and killed many peoples. According to Khakass mythology, the Arinians in ancient times were numerous and arrogant towards the surrounding peoples. In their ancestral home, near Mount Kum-Tigei, inhabited a myriad of snakes . The Arintsy, without missing a single one, cut them with sabers. The serpent king (khak - Chylan-khan) declared war on the Arins, during which the Arins were practically exterminated. Like the mythical story about the struggle of the Scythians with snakes and their death is recorded in the history of Herodotus .
    But it came without a source, just a mention of Gerhard Friedrich Miller. Would anyone know it's origin?

  4. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to CopperAxe For This Useful Post:

     Alain (06-16-2021),  altvred (06-23-2021),  Ryukendo (06-16-2021)

  5. #3
    Registered Users
    Posts
    636
    Sex

    Netherlands Kenya
    And within 15 minutes of me making this thread, I came across an article which covers the Yeniseian - Turkic contacts:

    Тюркские заимствования в енисейских языках в сравнительно-историческом освещении - Türkic loanwords in the Yenisei languages ​​in comparative-historical coverage


    EDIT:

    Unfortunately paywalled, although the abstract does already paint a decent picture. If anyone has access to this article let me know.
    Last edited by CopperAxe; 06-16-2021 at 05:58 PM.

  6. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to CopperAxe For This Useful Post:

     Alain (06-16-2021),  JoeyP37 (06-16-2021),  Ryukendo (06-29-2021)

  7. #4
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,117
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Indo-europeen
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a-Y33 Kurgan/ CWC
    mtDNA (M)
    H76

    European Union Poland Germany Lithuania Romania Ukraine
    Hello CopperAxe,

    interesting post, unfortunately it will be difficult to reconstruct the Yenisan language as it had taken many Turkish loanwords over time but also had an influence on the Turkish and Mongolian vocabulary. I think it is a very old remnant which may be connected to Na-Dené Language (early separation in the Baikal region? Or a return migration of Beringia migrants / and others with paleo-Aleut groups from the New World to the region?) And actually cannot be counted among the paleosiberian languages, like Niwchische - , Chuktscho-Kamchadal, Eskimo-Aleut languages, Ainu (also a special position like the Yenisese languages) are both isolated languages, but I also think that over time the Yenisian-speaking population is part of the local populations of the Altai-Sayan region and were also an indicator of the early Scytho-Siberians and the later Teren Xiongnu.

    A more recent thesis by van Driem (2001) puts the Jenissie language in connection with Burushaski as a Karasuk family, thus the Burusho movement should have run parallel to the Dardic group of Indo-Aryans for a long time, which is what the numerous early loanwords from Dardic could explain, but the Karasuk culture cannot be related to the Burusho because this culture emerged when the Indo-Aryan migration was largely completed on the subcontinent, I don't fit the hypothesis, what do you think?
    Alain Dad
    Y-DNA R1a-Y33 Eastern Corderd Ware Culture Baltoslavic/ old Pruzzen
    H76 czech Republic/England (Celtic tribes ?) W3a1d Yamnaya Culture, Samara /Pontic steppe
    Scytho-Sarmatian.

    YourDNAPortal Calculator ancient K36

    Kivutkalns_153_Latvia_BA 22
    DA112_Hallstatt-Bylany_800BC 19
    DA191_Hungary_Scythian 12
    IA_Wielbark_Mas_5_PL 11
    BA_Hungary_RISE254 7
    IA_Wielbark_Kow_25_PL 7
    LBA_Lithuania_RISE598 7
    IA_Britain_York_6DRIF22 6
    IA_EastKazachstan_Is2 6
    CHL_Iran_I1670 2

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to Alain For This Useful Post:

     CopperAxe (06-16-2021)

  9. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    636
    Sex

    Netherlands Kenya
    Quote Originally Posted by Alain View Post
    Hello CopperAxe,

    interesting post, unfortunately it will be difficult to reconstruct the Yenisan language as it had taken many Turkish loanwords over time but also had an influence on the Turkish and Mongolian vocabulary. I think it is a very old remnant which may be connected to Na-Dené Language (early separation in the Baikal region? Or a return migration of Beringia migrants / and others with paleo-Aleut groups from the New World to the region?) And actually cannot be counted among the paleosiberian languages, like Niwchische - , Chuktscho-Kamchadal, Eskimo-Aleut languages, Ainu (also a special position like the Yenisese languages) are both isolated languages, but I also think that over time the Yenisian-speaking population is part of the local populations of the Altai-Sayan region and were also an indicator of the early Scytho-Siberians and the later Teren Xiongnu.
    Personally, I have no clue what to make of the Na-Dené connection in a genetic sense. I'm not sure what the timeframe for this connection is, and how to reconcile it with what we know now. I'm not sure if the connection between Dené-Yeniseian would be paleolithic and either reached the Americas early on, or later via the Paleo-Eskimo wave but with a very old separation in regards to the Yeniseian languages, or that Dené-Yeniseian has a younger connection, with a later split and an eastwards migration, ultimately leading to the Paleo-Eskimo wave. Y-dna wise, we are dealing with long separated branches of Q as far as I know when it comes to bronze age Sayan/Baikal populations and the Paleo-Eskimo and Na-Dené people. But that might not mean much given the matrilineal social structures prevalent in the Americas, including with the Na-Dené people.

    The proposed connection i've often come across here, is that these populations came from the northeast by way of the Syalakh-Bel'kachi horizon which stretched across the Lena river and just eastwards of it, but that option has never and still does not make any sense to me. LN/Bronze age Altai-Sayan and the Cis-Baikal to me clearly were the result of migrations from the west (as the archaeology of the Bolshemys culture already pointed out) bringing WSHG and Q haplogroups with them, from my eyes it looks like the kind of genetic intrusion that leads to a language shift. And even if there wasn't, the substrate population seem to be related to the earlier samples seem in around lake Baikal in the Neolithic, which were pretty heavy on haplogroup N, which do seem all that connected to the Paleo-Eskimos.

    Simply said, I find it all very confusing and haven't been able to make it all click in my mind, so I have no real opinion to give here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alain View Post
    A more recent thesis by van Driem (2001) puts the Jenissie language in connection with Burushaski as a Karasuk family, thus the Burusho movement should have run parallel to the Dardic group of Indo-Aryans for a long time, which is what the numerous early loanwords from Dardic could explain, but the Karasuk culture cannot be related to the Burusho because this culture emerged when the Indo-Aryan migration was largely completed on the subcontinent, I don't fit the hypothesis, what do you think?
    If I had to entertain each and every theory linguists throw out after reading a summary of an archaeological culture my head would explode. Nope I clearly think the Karasuk theory is complete utter (beeep). The ethnolinguistic attribution to the Karasuk culture seems pretty straightforward to me. The only language shift that happened in this region was when earlier Andronovo populations were replaced/assimilated into these ones, and the Siberian populations that became part of the Karasuk populations of course. If there actually is a connection between Burushaski and Yeniseian (which mostly seems disputed), maybe Burushaski was a language spoken by WSHG(+Steppe_EN)+Central Asian farmer populations that got it from the first half of the equation, with Proto-Yeniseian then being the offspring of WSHG+ESHG population, speaking a language on the WSHG side. This requires too many ifs and maybes for me to have any faith in it.
    Last edited by CopperAxe; 06-16-2021 at 05:32 PM.

  10. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to CopperAxe For This Useful Post:

     Alain (06-16-2021),  Coldmountains (06-16-2021),  Ryukendo (06-29-2021)

  11. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    636
    Sex

    Netherlands Kenya
    If anyone feels like giving me a helping hand here, could you please check out chapter XV of Dolgikh's book I mentioned in the original post and see what stuff is mentioned about the Yeniseian peoples, that particular chapter deals with the Krasnoyarsk Krai region AFAIK.

    There is a freely accessible version online, which you can find by clicking here.

    If there is more stuff to be found in this book be my guest to uncover it as well. I can't get the file to be 10mb in size, which is the size limit for most online pdf translation tools.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to CopperAxe For This Useful Post:

     Ryukendo (06-29-2021)

  13. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    636
    Sex

    Netherlands Kenya
    Службы красноярских «татар» в XVII столетии - П. Н. Барахович / Services of the Krasnoyarsk "Tatars" in the 17th century - P. N. Barakhovich

    This article, also freely available on the internet has some interesting insights of the relations which the Arins, Yastins and Kachins had with both the Russians and the Kyrgyz. Their military services, reasons for fighting with the russians and against the Kyrgyz (and sometimes going against the Russians in favour of the Kyrgyz), their participation in battles and defenses against raids against the Kyrgyz, Dzungars and Buryats and a bunch more. It's brief, but definitely informative. I it seems like I really need to get my hands on a version of GF Miller's works it seems, as he is constantly referred to.

    One thing I'm not sure about is who the Kachins which are mentioned here are. They are conflated with the Arins and Yastins, who both were Yeniseian tribes. The Kachins nowadays are a subgroup of the Khakass who have mixed origin with various Kettic/Yeniseian tribes being part of their ethnogenesis. Would the Kachins mentioned here in the article be the Turkic progenitor Kachin Khakass, or a Yeniseian population which inhabited that region?

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to CopperAxe For This Useful Post:

     Ryukendo (06-29-2021)

Similar Threads

  1. The Genomic History of the Bronze Age Southern Levant
    By Agamemnon in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 217
    Last Post: 05-24-2021, 03:16 PM
  2. Replies: 91
    Last Post: 02-11-2021, 06:30 AM
  3. Blood Groups and the history of peoples.
    By JohnHowellsTyrfro in forum Medical Genetics
    Replies: 41
    Last Post: 09-28-2017, 01:38 PM
  4. Replies: 43
    Last Post: 01-18-2015, 02:11 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •