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Thread: Genetic Evidence for Dorian Invasion

  1. #11
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    Northeastern U.S.

    Maybe, like I said it’s possible that BGR_IA is a Greek colonist that somehow got far into Thrace, or just a Thracian with Mycenaean admixture, but either way it is different from other Mycenaean or Greek samples of the time we have

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  3. #12
    Registered Users

    "Greece_Lassithi_Minoan" 76.15
    "Bulgaria_MLBA" 18.65 (the Sintashta-like fellow)
    "Spain_BellBeaker_o" 3.7 (North-African)
    "MotaX5" 0.9 (to adjust for sample quality)
    "Sardinia_BellBeaker_o" 0.6 (North-African)
    "distance%=0.2363 / distance=0.002363"
    Columns: ,Anatolia_Barcin_N,Levant_N,Iran_GanjDareh_N,CHG.S G,Taforalt,Vanuatu_ancient,PrimorskyKrai_Boisman_M N,Peru_Laramate_900BP,Karelia_HG,IronGates_Meso1,Y amnaya_Samara,Ust_Ishim.DG
    Pretty tight fit considering 3/4 of the ancestry is coming from one source. The small amount of North-African appears necessary.

    I5769 is rather noisy, but it really doesn't look markedly different. Perhaps a little higher steppe and a little less North African.
    Something interesting about it though...

    Spain_Roman_oMixed (I8475)
    "Bulgaria_IA" 38.1
    "Portugal_TorreVelha3_MBA.SG" 35.25
    "Ireland_BA.SG" 25.5
    "Mota.SG" 1.05
    "Cameroon_ShumLaka_8000BP.SG" 0.05
    "South_Africa_2000BP.SG" 0.05
    "distance%=0.2575 / distance=0.002575"
    Many of the post-BA samples from Spain seem to work as Iberian-BA + Isles-BA (celts I'd assume?)
    Last edited by Kale; 08-18-2021 at 07:26 AM.
    Collection of 14,000 d-stats: Hidden Content Part 2: Hidden Content Part 3: Hidden Content PM me for d-stats, qpadm, qpgraph, or f3-outgroup nmonte models.

  4. #13
    Registered Users

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyh View Post
    So it is a very common opinion in modern day to say the Dorian Invasion never happened, but now I think there is some degree of genetic evidence for at least some sort of gene flow from the north balkans to Greece during the Greek Dark Ages.

    1. Genetic affinity between Greek Empuriés colonist I8215 & Iron Age Bulgarian I5769
    So Greek Empuriotes are really the only Greek samples I know of between the medieval period and the Bronze Age. Obviously this isn’t ideal, since Empuriés was a pretty diverse place with pretty diverse origins, but this Greek can be modeled as ~2/3 Mycenaean, ~1/3 Thracian(?).

    Target: Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    Distance: 2.6157% / 0.02615743 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    63.4 GRC_Mycenaean
    36.6 BGR_IA

    And remember that the Empuriotes descend from Phocaea, which presumably was somewhat more East-shifted than continental populations due to being in Anatolia. And yet still, this individual can be modeled as significantly admixed With a similar, but more northerly population relative to the Mycenaeans. Phocaea, despite being Ionian civically, was founded and populated by Dorians.

    There is another possibility, that this “Thracian” is actually not a Thracian, but rather a Greek colonist who somehow got far inland. But all this would do is suggest a higher degree of admixture among Greek colonists, which would muddy the situation for settlers of Ionia and likewise Doric/Aeolic Anatolia (such as Phocaeans).

    2. Crete_Armenoi and the Clemente et al. Samples

    Yes, I KNOW that Crete_Armenoi is a low-quality sample. And I definitely would not use it alone as evidence for Doric invasion. However, if I remember correctly, the less steppe-Admixed of the two proto-Greek samples in Clemente et al. clustered around where Crete_Armenoi was, near Thessalians. This would mean that a Crete_Armenoi-Like population existed at some point in northern Greece, the homeland of the Dorians.

    So what do you guys think? Obviously this isn’t damning or anything, but it does justify further inquiry in my opinion. I mean, it just seems far fetched that some of the most important aspects of tribal identity among the ancient Greeks is totally meaningless
    Empuries samples look completely within Mycenaean range. One of the Mycenaeans, i9033 has more steppe than them, and about the same level as BGR_IA, so there's no need to use BGR_IA.
    But this is just 4 Mycenaeans and 2 Clasical Greeks, more samples would be needed to tell for sure.

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