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Thread: Genetic Evidence for Dorian Invasion

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    Genetic Evidence for Dorian Invasion

    So it is a very common opinion in modern day to say the Dorian Invasion never happened, but now I think there is some degree of genetic evidence for at least some sort of gene flow from the north balkans to Greece during the Greek Dark Ages.

    1. Genetic affinity between Greek Empuriés colonist I8215 & Iron Age Bulgarian I5769
    So Greek Empuriotes are really the only Greek samples I know of between the medieval period and the Bronze Age. Obviously this isn’t ideal, since Empuriés was a pretty diverse place with pretty diverse origins, but this Greek can be modeled as ~2/3 Mycenaean, ~1/3 Thracian(?).

    Target: Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    Distance: 2.6157% / 0.02615743 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    63.4 GRC_Mycenaean
    36.6 BGR_IA

    And remember that the Empuriotes descend from Phocaea, which presumably was somewhat more East-shifted than continental populations due to being in Anatolia. And yet still, this individual can be modeled as significantly admixed With a similar, but more northerly population relative to the Mycenaeans. Phocaea, despite being Ionian civically, was founded and populated by Dorians.

    There is another possibility, that this “Thracian” is actually not a Thracian, but rather a Greek colonist who somehow got far inland. But all this would do is suggest a higher degree of admixture among Greek colonists, which would muddy the situation for settlers of Ionia and likewise Doric/Aeolic Anatolia (such as Phocaeans).

    2. Crete_Armenoi and the Clemente et al. Samples

    Yes, I KNOW that Crete_Armenoi is a low-quality sample. And I definitely would not use it alone as evidence for Doric invasion. However, if I remember correctly, the less steppe-Admixed of the two proto-Greek samples in Clemente et al. clustered around where Crete_Armenoi was, near Thessalians. This would mean that a Crete_Armenoi-Like population existed at some point in northern Greece, the homeland of the Dorians.

    So what do you guys think? Obviously this isn’t damning or anything, but it does justify further inquiry in my opinion. I mean, it just seems far fetched that some of the most important aspects of tribal identity among the ancient Greeks is totally meaningless

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    I didn’t mean north balkans, sorry. I meant just the balkans north of Greece.

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    As a sanity check I'd make sure Empuries can't model as something Greek + something Iberian.
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    It’s possible, but they’re very Mycenaean-like. I don’t even know if Empuriés would have been a colony long enough by the time of these samples to have such a small Iberian DNA shift. As far as I can tell the samples are from the 5th c. BC and Empuriés was set up in the 6th c. BC. Imo it’s more likely part Carthaginian than Iberian but that’s equally unlikely.

    Also something I forgot to mention, E-V13 is common in former Doric territories, and is also common directly north of Greece in Albania. However, Mycenaean samples are not E1b, they are J2 iirc.

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    Just throwing this one out there: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y18331/
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyh View Post
    Also something I forgot to mention, E-V13 is common in former Doric territories
    Can't find the link but user 23abc cast some doubts on this theory, based on the collected Y DNA data for Greece.


    Quote Originally Posted by leorcooper19 View Post
    Just throwing this one out there: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y18331/
    How would they end up in Lithuania and Belarus though?

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    Quote Originally Posted by leorcooper19 View Post
    Just throwing this one out there: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y18331/
    Y18331 is WAAAAAAY too young to have anything to do with Dorians even if its not Slavic and thats a big IF its still connected to movements that happened at a much later time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    How would they end up in Lithuania and Belarus though?
    I-Y23115 is actually only found among Eastern Ashkenazi Jews, which is why I knew of I-Y18331's strange spread. There's no doubt that it's mostly southern Balkan and Greek (plus the EAJ group), which sharply opposes the rest of I-Y3120.
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by vasil View Post
    Y18331 is WAAAAAAY too young to have anything to do with Dorians even if its not Slavic and thats a big IF its still connected to movements that happened at a much later time.
    You're totally right, I should have done my due-diligence to check the dating of the Dorians. Either way, it does seem to be an exemplar of a clade (or more likely, a set of already diversified, younger clades) that went south into modern Greece/Albania/Macedonia, probably in the Roman period. Even with the basal Pole, given how the entire branch is mainly lacking in Slavs while ever other branch of I-Y3120 is full of them tells me that this subclade really did not participate in the same major expansion as the others. Please let me know if you think that's wrong or any other thoughts you (or others) have.
     
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    Mycenaean-like gene flow might have gone into Bulgaria IA.

    Regarding E-V13, I'm not a haplogroup anorak like some people here so I don't have a strong opinion, but I wouldn't be surprised if its spread in Greece is mostly medieval. If Arvanite and South Slavic people had a big genetic impact in Greece, it would surprise me even less.
    Last edited by Michalis Moriopoulos; 06-18-2021 at 01:24 PM.
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