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Thread: Alphabet Soup -- Regional Languages Discussion.

  1. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kapisa View Post
    Yup. Interestingly, 'Zenan' is not singular either, pointing to a change in meaning after borrowing.
    I thought that 'Zal' might also be an Iranic borrowing but not sure.
    Zal may well be a borrowing from Balochi as it is the most commonly used term for wife in that language as well. On the other hand, it could just as easily be a borrowing in the other direction as there are many Sindhi loan words in Balochi. Other words for woman in Sindhi such as Owrat, Zan and Zaifa can also refer to a wife depending on the context.

  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by heksindhi View Post
    Zal may well be a borrowing from Balochi as it is the most commonly used term for wife in that language as well. On the other hand, it could just as easily be a borrowing in the other direction as there are many Sindhi loan words in Balochi. Other words for woman in Sindhi such as Owrat, Zan and Zaifa can also refer to a wife depending on the context.
    What dialect of Balochi would this be? The title says Eastern Balochi, but it sounds Farsi influenced when she speaks.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OWoKDqJQt1c
    "

  3. #133
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    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VNhB6Ii56Mk

    A Persianized version of the Zoroastrian Dari language spoken by the Irani people in South Asia.
    "

  4. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpb View Post
    Hm, well a cursory google search seems to indicate in Farsi, zal is albino or fair haired. A word dating back to the shahnahmeh interestingly!

    In Kashmiri, zal means urine, so if both are loan words, I’m not surprised Kashmiris chose Zenan lol.
    Yup, but that Zal is male! King and father of Rostam.
    Here is a possible Sanskrit word which might have later morphed into 'Janani' and 'zal' with the j>z shift in the later! The Sanskrit is pretty close to Persian 'Zan'

    जनि jani जनि gn-i (or ) f. woman; wife (pl. fig. the fingers); birth, origin.
    55) जनित्व janitva (p. 99)
    जनित्व janitva जनित्व gani-tva n. wifehood; -divasa, m. birth-day; -mat, a. wedded; having an origin; m. creature, man.

    Another word for wife in the dictionary:
    81) नारि nāri (p. 139)
    नारि nāri नारि nri f. woman, wife.

    https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/ap...chtype=default
    Last edited by Kapisa; 06-21-2021 at 03:23 PM.
     

    [ { "distance": "1.69",
    "sample": "Kapisa-Dad (Kapisa)",
    "Khatri-Kohistani-Sindhi-Kamboj": 99.2,
    "Kurdish-Persian": 0.4,
    "Ju hoan": 0.4,},

    { "distance": "1.61",
    "sample": "Kapisa (Kapisa)",
    "Khatri-Kohistani-Sindhi-Kamboj": 94.8,
    "Kurdish-Persian": 0.6,
    "Ju hoan": 0.6,
    "Gupta": 4 },

    { "distance": "2.38",
    "sample":"Kapisa-Mom (Kapisa)",
    "Khatri-Kohistani-Sindhi-Kamboj": 89.4,
    "Kurdish-Persian": 3.4,
    "Gupta": 7.2 } ]

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  6. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azbuzz View Post
    What dialect of Balochi would this be? The title says Eastern Balochi, but it sounds Farsi influenced when she speaks.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OWoKDqJQt1c
    This is western/makrani Balochi as spoken in Iranian Balochistan. Accents can vary a lot in Balochi. Here is an example of the variety. The guy on the left is speaking with a Karachi (Lyari) Balochi accent.


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  8. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by royaljoker View Post
    Thats fascinating. I wonder how close to the Indian castes come to this potential R-Y9 (given by Nevgen) of the Khazars.
    If both the ottomans and Khazars do turn out to be R-L657 would their clade be classified as Indo-Aryan ? If I'm not wrong R-Y9 is Indo-Aryan territory.

    I wonder, that If the Khazars are a Indo-Aryan splinter, that perhaps (seeing as mittani possibly had their origins in Caucasia) the Mittani could also be an earlier Indo-Aryan. Even though Indo-aryan lineages aren't present in modern times in the Middle East.The complete absence of R-L657 from modern regions of Khazar/ottomans means that it could be a possibility. Of course its all speculation with both of them still being unconfirmed
    One can't be certain, though it is possible that there was an Indian component to them.
    See eg. Kara Khazar. Kara is common usage for black in Indic as well as Turkic. We use words like kara/kala, karia/kalia for black.

    Proto-South Dravidian : *kar-
    Meaning : black
    https://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/et...25&root=config

    Ibn Fadlan:
    Kara Khazar, of a yellow color tending to black so that they looked like a kind of Hindus
    Last edited by parasar; 06-22-2021 at 08:44 PM.

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  10. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    One can't be certain, though it is possible that there was an Indian component to them.
    See eg. Kara Khazar. Kara is common usage for black in Indic as well as Turkic. We use words like kara/kala, karia/kalia for black.

    Proto-South Dravidian : *kar-
    Meaning : black
    https://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/et...25&root=config

    Ibn Fadlan:
    Kara Khazar, of a yellow color tending to black so that they looked like a kind of Hindus
    The word Kara is NOT derived from the modern Hindi Kala but the Mongolian Khar. IN fact, Kala might have come into Hindi via the Turkics, of the Delhi Sultanate.

  11. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rahuls77 View Post
    The word Kara is NOT derived from the modern Hindi Kala but the Mongolian Khar. IN fact, Kala might have come into Hindi via the Turkics, of the Delhi Sultanate.
    It has an Indo-european shared origin:
    कार्ष्ण kārṣṇa
    कार्ष्ण krshna a. () coming from the black antelope; belonging to or composed by Krish- na; n. hide of the black antelope.
    कार्ष्णायस kārṣṇāyasa
    कार्ष्णायस krshna̮ayasa a. () made of iron; n. iron.
    कार्ष्ण्य kārṣṇya
    कार्ष्ण्य krshn-ya n. blackness; darkness.
    https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/ap...ery.py?page=67

    KR-
    Sanskrit: कृष्ण (kṛṣṇ)

    black, dark, dark-blue, wicked, evil
    the dark half of the lunar month from full to new moon
    the fourth or कलियुग (kali-yuga)
    the antelope
    a kind of animal feeding on carrion, a crow
    blackness, darkness, the black part of the eye
    the black spots on the moon
    a kind of demon or spirit of darkness
    black pepper, black Aquilaria (syn. Agallochum)
    iron, lead, antimony, blue vitriol

    Kalasha: krṣna

    Old Prussian: kirsnan

    Lithuanian: kirsnas ("black horse")

    KAR-
    ---> Turkish: kara

    Sanskrit: कार्ष्ण्य (kārṣṇya) ("blackness")

    Greek: καράς (karas) ("black horse")

    Ukrainian: карий (karyj) ("black horse")

    https://www.indo-european-connection.com/words/black

    I am not a linguist but it might have been adopted into turkic by nomads later on or it was part of their language before hand.
    Last edited by Kapisa; 06-22-2021 at 09:48 PM.
     

    [ { "distance": "1.69",
    "sample": "Kapisa-Dad (Kapisa)",
    "Khatri-Kohistani-Sindhi-Kamboj": 99.2,
    "Kurdish-Persian": 0.4,
    "Ju hoan": 0.4,},

    { "distance": "1.61",
    "sample": "Kapisa (Kapisa)",
    "Khatri-Kohistani-Sindhi-Kamboj": 94.8,
    "Kurdish-Persian": 0.6,
    "Ju hoan": 0.6,
    "Gupta": 4 },

    { "distance": "2.38",
    "sample":"Kapisa-Mom (Kapisa)",
    "Khatri-Kohistani-Sindhi-Kamboj": 89.4,
    "Kurdish-Persian": 3.4,
    "Gupta": 7.2 } ]

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  13. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    One can't be certain, though it is possible that there was an Indian component to them.
    See eg. Kara Khazar. Kara is common usage for black in Indic as well as Turkic. We use words like kara/kala, karia/kalia for black.

    Proto-South Dravidian : *kar-
    Meaning : black
    https://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/et...25&root=config

    Ibn Fadlan:
    Kara Khazar, of a yellow color tending to black so that they looked like a kind of Hindus
    Could be Kaali -

    Her other epithets include Kālarātri ("the black night"), and Kālikā ("the black one").[5]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali#Etymology

    Does Kala in Kalash indicates same?

    Kalanos, also spelled Calanus (Ancient Greek: Καλανὸς)[1] (c. 398 – 323 BCE), was a gymnosophist,[2][3][4][5] and philosopher from Taxila[6] who accompanied Alexander the Great to Persis and later self-immolated himself by entering into a Holy Pyre, in front of Alexander and his army. Diodorus Siculus called him Caranus (Ancient Greek: Κάρανος).[7]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalanos

    Here does Kala/Kara mean black ?
    Last edited by discreetmaverick; 06-22-2021 at 09:54 PM.

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  15. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rahuls77 View Post
    The word Kara is NOT derived from the modern Hindi Kala but the Mongolian Khar. IN fact, Kala might have come into Hindi via the Turkics, of the Delhi Sultanate.
    We have the word kalyavan (black ionian) in the Mahabharat Shanti Parv and Visnu Puran, which puts it in the Greek time frame or close thereafter, but pre-Turkic.

    "O foremost of Brahmanas, compass the death of Kalayavana, a Danava who will be endued with great might in consequence of his being equipt with the energy of Gargya. 2 A proud Asura will appear as a king at Girivraja, of the name of Jarasandha, who will quarrel with all the other kings of the world. His death will be compassed by me through some one else guided by my intelligence."
    https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m12/m12c039.htm

    "The 21 papers of the first volume largely focus on Hiltebeitel’s proposition that MB is a deliberate literary composition written around 150-100 BCE (a period first suggested in 1901 by E.W.Hopkins, but ignored) when the Sungas reasserted Brahmanism against the spread of Buddhism under the Mauryas. This flies in the teeth of the prevalent theory of it being orally transmitted and finally written down in the Gupta period ...
    For Hiltebeitel, Jarasandha represents the Buddhist tempter Mara (death). This is linked to Jara (senility) killing Krishna. Rajagriha and Magadha were centers of Buddhism which revived in the Mathura region under Kanishka, pushing out Brahmanism (depicted in Krishna having to leave Mathura). Asti and Prapti, Jarasandha’s daughters, are non-Vedic names but prominent terms in Sarvastivadin Buddhism, one of the earliest Buddhist sects. Thus, MB reflects a contest between Brahminical and Buddhist ideas. A. Holtzman Jr. proposed in the 1890s that MB was originally a Buddhist epic with Duryodhana modeled on Ashoka representing national resistance against Greek invasion, which was subsequently turned on its head by Brahmins. In the account of the Kalinga princess’ svayamvara in the Shanti Parva, Jarasandha and a king named Ashoka are present, besides rulers from the north (Sakas etc. symbolized in Kalayavana, Jarasandha’s ally) and the Buddhist dominated east....
    Mahadevan has shown that around 25 BCE, the invading Sakas having supplanted the Mitras, Purvashikha Brahmins from Mathura moved to Tamil areas carrying MB with them. This MB was written by a “tri-Vedic axis” of Purvashikha Shrauta Brahmins with cooperation from “branches” of the three Vedas around 300-100 BCE. This would be the text underlying the Sharada and Kashmiri manuscripts that are the core of the Critical Edition. Ashvaghosha (Buddhacarita) was familiar in the 1st or 2nd century CE with an MB that included the Mokshadharma Parva, so far presumed to be a late addition. Taking his cue from the committees of the Buddhist Councils that edited the Suttas and the Vinaya, Hiltebeitel suggests that this model is applicable to MB, particularly for the Shanti and Anushasana Parvas."
    https://www.boloji.com/articles/1501...stern-indology

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