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Thread: Alphabet Soup -- Regional Languages Discussion.

  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by discreetmaverick View Post
    Could be Kaali -

    Her other epithets include Kālarātri ("the black night"), and Kālikā ("the black one").[5]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali#Etymology

    Does Kala in Kalash indicates same?



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalanos

    Here does Kala/Kara mean black ?
    I have read that in Calanus it is proximally from Shiva - kaal - cf. the modern kaula, but ultimately likely from time/death/black/dark.


    "Kali, (Sanskrit: “She Who Is Black” or “She Who Is Death”) in Hinduism, goddess of time, doomsday, and death, or the black goddess (the feminine form of Sanskrit kala, “time-doomsday-death” or “black”). Kali’s origins can be traced to the deities of the village, tribal, and mountain cultures of South Asia who were gradually appropriated and transformed, if never quite tamed, by the Sanskritic traditions."
    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Kali
    Last edited by parasar; 06-22-2021 at 10:15 PM.

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    I have read that in Calanus it is proximally from Shiva - kaal - cf. the modern kaula, but ultimately likely from time/death/black/dark.


    "Kali, (Sanskrit: “She Who Is Black” or “She Who Is Death”) in Hinduism, goddess of time, doomsday, and death, or the black goddess (the feminine form of Sanskrit kala, “time-doomsday-death” or “black”). Kali’s origins can be traced to the deities of the village, tribal, and mountain cultures of South Asia who were gradually appropriated and transformed, if never quite tamed, by the Sanskritic traditions."
    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Kali
    Kaula, also known as Kula, Kulamārga ("the Kula practice") and Kaulācāra ("the Kaula conduct"), is a religious tradition in Shaktism and Tantric Shaivism
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaula_(Hinduism)

    Kaula would become Kula, not Kala.

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kapisa View Post
    It has an Indo-european shared origin:
    कार्ष्ण kārṣṇa
    कार्ष्ण kãrshna a. (î) coming from the black antelope; belonging to or composed by Krish- na; n. hide of the black antelope.
    कार्ष्णायस kārṣṇāyasa
    कार्ष्णायस kârshna̮ayasa a. (î) made of iron; n. iron.
    कार्ष्ण्य kārṣṇya
    कार्ष्ण्य kârshn-ya n. blackness; darkness.
    https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/ap...ery.py?page=67

    KR-
    Sanskrit: कृष्ण (kṛṣṇá)

    black, dark, dark-blue, wicked, evil
    the dark half of the lunar month from full to new moon
    the fourth or कलियुग (kali-yuga)
    the antelope
    a kind of animal feeding on carrion, a crow
    blackness, darkness, the black part of the eye
    the black spots on the moon
    a kind of demon or spirit of darkness
    black pepper, black Aquilaria (syn. Agallochum)
    iron, lead, antimony, blue vitriol

    Kalasha: kríṣna

    Old Prussian: kirsnan

    Lithuanian: kirsnas ("black horse")

    KAR-
    ---> Turkish: kara

    Sanskrit: कार्ष्ण्य (kārṣṇya) ("blackness")

    Greek: καράς (karas) ("black horse")

    Ukrainian: карий (karyj) ("black horse")

    https://www.indo-european-connection.com/words/black

    I am not a linguist but it might have been adopted into turkic by nomads later on or it was part of their language before hand.
    Well, there are a lot of IE, or specifically, Indo-Iranian influences on Turkic and Mongolian languages, coinciding with the migrations into Inner Asia, from the same waves that made it into South Asia, that's also how you find a lot of lineages(clades) that also made it into South Central Asia as well as trickling into West Asia. However, the Turkics had closer, or greater proximity to the Mongols, as they rose from within a confederation that was dominated by the Mongols, even as a lot of groups from Central Asia were assimilated into them, groups, who did have exchanges with the South Asians or South Central Asians of that period, throughout the first millennium.

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  5. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kapisa View Post
    It has an Indo-european shared origin:
    कार्ष्ण kārṣṇa
    कार्ष्ण kãrshna a. (î) coming from the black antelope; belonging to or composed by Krish- na; n. hide of the black antelope.
    कार्ष्णायस kārṣṇāyasa
    कार्ष्णायस kârshna̮ayasa a. (î) made of iron; n. iron.
    कार्ष्ण्य kārṣṇya
    कार्ष्ण्य kârshn-ya n. blackness; darkness.
    https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/ap...ery.py?page=67

    KR-
    Sanskrit: कृष्ण (kṛṣṇá)

    black, dark, dark-blue, wicked, evil
    the dark half of the lunar month from full to new moon
    the fourth or कलियुग (kali-yuga)
    the antelope
    a kind of animal feeding on carrion, a crow
    blackness, darkness, the black part of the eye
    the black spots on the moon
    a kind of demon or spirit of darkness
    black pepper, black Aquilaria (syn. Agallochum)
    iron, lead, antimony, blue vitriol

    Kalasha: kríṣna

    Old Prussian: kirsnan

    Lithuanian: kirsnas ("black horse")

    KAR-
    ---> Turkish: kara

    Sanskrit: कार्ष्ण्य (kārṣṇya) ("blackness")

    Greek: καράς (karas) ("black horse")

    Ukrainian: карий (karyj) ("black horse")

    https://www.indo-european-connection.com/words/black

    I am not a linguist but it might have been adopted into turkic by nomads later on or it was part of their language before hand.
    I wouldn't really look too much into it. For e.g., the Japanese word for black is "kuro", which is awfully similar to "kara" in Turkic and "khar" in Mongolic. However, from my knowledge kuro is the kun'yomi reading (Japanese pronunciation) of the on'yomi (Chinese word) "hei" of the character 黒. If one didn't know about Japanese characters, they would misinterpret the situation as a pseudo-relationship between all these languages which is definitely not the case. In Turkic languages, colours correspond to directions, which is strongly divergent from the Indo-Aryan understanding of colours so it is unlikely to be directly related.

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  7. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    We have the word kalyavan (black ionian) in the Mahabharat Shanti Parv and Visnu Puran, which puts it in the Greek time frame or close thereafter, but pre-Turkic.

    "O foremost of Brahmanas, compass the death of Kalayavana, a Danava who will be endued with great might in consequence of his being equipt with the energy of Gargya. 2 A proud Asura will appear as a king at Girivraja, of the name of Jarasandha, who will quarrel with all the other kings of the world. His death will be compassed by me through some one else guided by my intelligence."
    https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m12/m12c039.htm

    "The 21 papers of the first volume largely focus on Hiltebeitel’s proposition that MB is a deliberate literary composition written around 150-100 BCE (a period first suggested in 1901 by E.W.Hopkins, but ignored) when the Sungas reasserted Brahmanism against the spread of Buddhism under the Mauryas. This flies in the teeth of the prevalent theory of it being orally transmitted and finally written down in the Gupta period ...
    For Hiltebeitel, Jarasandha represents the Buddhist tempter Mara (death). This is linked to Jara (senility) killing Krishna. Rajagriha and Magadha were centers of Buddhism which revived in the Mathura region under Kanishka, pushing out Brahmanism (depicted in Krishna having to leave Mathura). Asti and Prapti, Jarasandha’s daughters, are non-Vedic names but prominent terms in Sarvastivadin Buddhism, one of the earliest Buddhist sects. Thus, MB reflects a contest between Brahminical and Buddhist ideas. A. Holtzman Jr. proposed in the 1890s that MB was originally a Buddhist epic with Duryodhana modeled on Ashoka representing national resistance against Greek invasion, which was subsequently turned on its head by Brahmins. In the account of the Kalinga princess’ svayamvara in the Shanti Parva, Jarasandha and a king named Ashoka are present, besides rulers from the north (Sakas etc. symbolized in Kalayavana, Jarasandha’s ally) and the Buddhist dominated east....
    Mahadevan has shown that around 25 BCE, the invading Sakas having supplanted the Mitras, Purvashikha Brahmins from Mathura moved to Tamil areas carrying MB with them. This MB was written by a “tri-Vedic axis” of Purvashikha Shrauta Brahmins with cooperation from “branches” of the three Vedas around 300-100 BCE. This would be the text underlying the Sharada and Kashmiri manuscripts that are the core of the Critical Edition. Ashvaghosha (Buddhacarita) was familiar in the 1st or 2nd century CE with an MB that included the Mokshadharma Parva, so far presumed to be a late addition. Taking his cue from the committees of the Buddhist Councils that edited the Suttas and the Vinaya, Hiltebeitel suggests that this model is applicable to MB, particularly for the Shanti and Anushasana Parvas."
    https://www.boloji.com/articles/1501...stern-indology
    This, again, if you believe the generally Hindutva historiography of the Mahabharata.
    I just had a glance at this boloji website, it is full of hindutva narratives.
    Anyhow, if you go by the Wiki definition of the name Kalayavana, it reads "death amongst decendants of Turvasu". Of course Mahabharata, as it developed, mixed up actual events of history with works of fiction, and supernatural forces, which makes it less credible and trustworthy for making it as a serious reference for the study of history.
    Last edited by Rahuls77; 06-22-2021 at 10:45 PM.

  8. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by discreetmaverick View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaula_(Hinduism)

    Kaula would become Kula, not Kala.
    The other way around, Kala - Shiva - would become - Kaula.
    Kaulas were tantrics of old in Mithila.

    See also the Kalmukhs - black face - quite a widespread shaivite group - with significant presence in Karnataka.
    It is also thought that Karnat, Kanara, Carnatic, Karnataka etc. derive from the black deccan soil.
    Last edited by parasar; 06-22-2021 at 10:56 PM.

  9. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rahuls77 View Post
    This, again, if you believe the generally Hindutva historiography of the Mahabharata.
    I just had a glance at this boloji website, it is full of hindutva narratives.
    Anyhow, if you go by the Wiki definition of the name Kalayavana, it reads "death amongst decendants of Turvasu". Of course Mahabharata, as it developed, mixed up actual events of history with works of fiction, and supernatural forces, which makes it less credible and trustworthy for making it as a serious reference for the study of history.
    The boloji site is providing a critique of Hiltebeitel's work which was quoted. I don't know of any western scholar who has delved deeper into the Mahabharat than has Alf Hiltebeitel.

    I would be inclined to agree with Wiki on this - black and death are often used interchangeably.

  10. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rahuls77 View Post
    Well, there are a lot of IE, or specifically, Indo-Iranian influences on Turkic and Mongolian languages, coinciding with the migrations into Inner Asia, from the same waves that made it into South Asia, that's also how you find a lot of lineages(clades) that also made it into South Central Asia as well as trickling into West Asia. However, the Turkics had closer, or greater proximity to the Mongols, as they rose from within a confederation that was dominated by the Mongols, even as a lot of groups from Central Asia were assimilated into them, groups, who did have exchanges with the South Asians or South Central Asians of that period, throughout the first millennium.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kulin View Post
    I wouldn't really look too much into it. For e.g., the Japanese word for black is "kuro", which is awfully similar to "kara" in Turkic and "khar" in Mongolic. However, from my knowledge kuro is the kun'yomi reading (Japanese pronunciation) of the on'yomi (Chinese word) "hei" of the character 黒. If one didn't know about Japanese characters, they would misinterpret the situation as a pseudo-relationship between all these languages which is definitely not the case. In Turkic languages, colours correspond to directions, which is strongly divergent from the Indo-Aryan understanding of colours so it is unlikely to be directly related.
    I'll leave this for the linguists to decide. However, its clear word for black in Hindi/Urdu is not a Turkic borrowing.
     

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    { "distance": "1.61",
    "sample": "Kapisa (Kapisa)",
    "Khatri-Kohistani-Sindhi-Kamboj": 94.8,
    "Kurdish-Persian": 0.6,
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    "Gupta": 4 },

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  12. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by discreetmaverick View Post
    ...
    Does Kala in Kalash indicates same?

    ...
    Not sure. We use the world kalasha for a tamba/copper vessel.
    Will have to check the Sanskrit form of the word.
    Last edited by parasar; 06-22-2021 at 11:14 PM.

  13. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kapisa View Post
    It has an Indo-european shared origin:
    कार्ष्ण kārṣṇa
    कार्ष्ण kãrshna a. (î) coming from the black antelope; belonging to or composed by Krish- na; n. hide of the black antelope.
    कार्ष्णायस kārṣṇāyasa
    कार्ष्णायस kârshna̮ayasa a. (î) made of iron; n. iron.
    कार्ष्ण्य kārṣṇya
    कार्ष्ण्य kârshn-ya n. blackness; darkness.
    https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/ap...ery.py?page=67

    KR-
    Sanskrit: कृष्ण (kṛṣṇá)

    black, dark, dark-blue, wicked, evil
    the dark half of the lunar month from full to new moon
    the fourth or कलियुग (kali-yuga)
    the antelope
    a kind of animal feeding on carrion, a crow
    blackness, darkness, the black part of the eye
    the black spots on the moon
    a kind of demon or spirit of darkness
    black pepper, black Aquilaria (syn. Agallochum)
    iron, lead, antimony, blue vitriol

    Kalasha: kríṣna

    Old Prussian: kirsnan

    Lithuanian: kirsnas ("black horse")

    KAR-
    ---> Turkish: kara

    Sanskrit: कार्ष्ण्य (kārṣṇya) ("blackness")

    Greek: καράς (karas) ("black horse")

    Ukrainian: карий (karyj) ("black horse")

    https://www.indo-european-connection.com/words/black

    I am not a linguist but it might have been adopted into turkic by nomads later on or it was part of their language before hand.
    From a Quora answer, Kara in greek mean head, black is loan word from Turkish

    As others have mentioned, in modern Greek, kára (κάρα - singular female) retains its ancient meaning of head, but in a very specific way, the head of a saint preserved as a relic. If you’re curious, just google “κάρα του τιμιου προδρομου” and you won’t be disappointed.

    As a prefix, kará- (καρά-) is a loanword from Turkish, where it meant black.

    https://www.quora.com/What-does-Kara-mean-in-Greek


    Wiktionary has same meaning,

    From Proto-Hellenic [Term?], perhaps from Proto-Indo-European *ḱr̥h₂-(e)s-n- (“top of the head/skull”), from the root *ḱerh₂- (“head, horn, top”); see there for more.

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BA%CE%AC%CF%81%CE%B1
    Last edited by discreetmaverick; 06-22-2021 at 11:15 PM.

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