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Thread: J1 in Ireland

  1. #11
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    Good Evening / Morning @Agamemnon
    what do you think of other branches of P58 tree which have some Arab tribes, such as:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS5383/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L860/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-BY111/

    the origin and the migration of these branches ... they spoke Southern Semitic and some of them still do so today although they are Arabian tribes (known as such in the Arabian Peninsula) and identify as Arabs (perhaps not from the first Arabs "Qedar" who most likely carried FGC12, but that's their identity)

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squad View Post
    My theory is that there was movement from the red sea coast of Arabia into the Levant some 3.5kya
    Do you mean the wandering in the Wilderness away from Pharaonic tyranny, before a group of them managed to go back to Canaan aroung 3.5K ago, while others stayed there?
    We expect that Moses wandered there in nowadays Hijaz, and that the Theophany was there, somewhere between southern Jordan and Hijaz. Was the tabernacle there where is Kaaba now? {Kaaba means = site of bare heeled on the holy ground}
    There are theories that in fact it was Pharaoh that got out of Canaan, hence wandering people were able to go there, to Cannan, rather than that these escaped from Egypt.
    Last edited by rzak; 07-21-2021 at 04:46 PM.

  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLMDG View Post
    Good Evening / Morning @Agamemnon
    what do you think of other branches of P58 tree which have some Arab tribes, such as:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS5383/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L860/
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-BY111/

    the origin and the migration of these branches ... they spoke Southern Semitic and some of them still do so today although they are Arabian tribes (known as such in the Arabian Peninsula) and identify as Arabs (perhaps not from the first Arabs "Qedar" who most likely carried FGC12, but that's their identity)
    In my view, all of those branches arrived in Arabia with the earliest waves of West Semites from the Levant , possibly some time during the 3rd millennium BCE. As stated in my last post, this wave is the one that brought Ethiosemitic and Modern South Arabian, both of which are basal branches of West Semitic (there is no "South Semitic" by the way, this is best described as a sprachbund or area of convergence, both of the branches mentioned here share no common innovations). These branches will probably account for the bulk of J1 in Yemen prior to the arrival of Z1884 with Central Semitic speech in a later migration that occurred during the 2nd millennium BCE:

     


    Keep in mind that the extent of the PS homeland on the map is approximative, it could have covered a larger area just as it could have been considerably smaller. Regardless, these xZ2331 branches of P58 seemingly correlate with the first wave of Semitic speakers in Arabia (hence the ubiquity of BY111 among MSA-speaking groups) while FGC11 (along with other Arabian branches of Z1884 such as BY74) correlates with the arrival of Central Semitic speech.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 07-22-2021 at 01:27 AM.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  6. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    In my view, all of those branches arrived in Arabia with the earliest waves of West Semites from the Levant , possibly some time during the 3rd millennium BCE. As stated in my last post, this wave is the one that brought Ethiosemitic and Modern South Arabian, both of which are basal branches of West Semitic (there is no "South Semitic" by the way, this is best described as a sprachbund or area of convergence, both of the branches mentioned here share no common innovations). These branches will probably account for the bulk of J1 in Yemen prior to the arrival of Z1884 with Central Semitic speech in a later migration that occurred during the 2nd millennium BCE:

     


    Keep in mind that the extent of the PS homeland on the map is approximative, it could have covered a larger area just as it could have been considerably smaller. Regardless, these xZ2331 branches of P58 seemingly correlate with the first wave of Semitic speakers in Arabia (hence the ubiquity of BY111 among MSA-speaking groups) while FGC11 (along with other Arabian branches of Z1884 such as BY74) correlates with the arrival of Central Semitic speech.
    great points ... would you suggest Mesopotamia > Eastern Arabia (Kingdom of Dilmun) as a possible path for the said older split branches into southern Arabia ? maybe in 5th-4th millennium BCE ?
    while Z1884 indeed came from Mesopotamia > Levant into the Hejaz region ?

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  8. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLMDG View Post
    great points ... would you suggest Mesopotamia > Eastern Arabia (Kingdom of Dilmun) as a possible path for the said older split branches into southern Arabia ? maybe in 5th-4th millennium BCE ?
    while Z1884 indeed came from Mesopotamia > Levant into the Hejaz region ?
    It remains a possibility, considering how P58 is bound to have originated in Mesopotamia, an early migration with the Ubaidians might in theory work. The main issue I have with this theory is how most of the MRCA estimates for those branches go back no further than the 3rd millennium BCE, which does such a scenario a strong disfavour to say the least. The way things are looking right now, they are bound to have arrived from the Levant instead, much like Z1884 at a later stage (which also arose in the Levant, like YSC234, Z2313, Z2317, Z2324, Z2331 and Z1853 before it, Z1865 however easily could have originated in Mesopotamia).
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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