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Thread: What exactly is Hajji Firuz BA?

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    What exactly is Hajji Firuz BA?

    IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA:I4243,0.113823,0.117801,-0.003394,0.034884,-0.020927,0.019801,0.00893,0.000692,-0.045813,-0.036265,0.012017,0.007643,-0.004162,-0.012248,0.019815,0.001193,-0.007432,0.00038,-0.004902,0.002751,-0.000749,-0.00371,0.001356,0.005061,0.000958

    Is this sample important for modern day Iranian ethnogenesis?

    Modern distances:

     

    Distance to: IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA:I4243
    0.04331956 Kaitag
    0.04571563 Avar
    0.04616327 Darginian
    0.04814738 Kubachinian
    0.04864094 Tabasaran
    0.04886003 Lak
    0.06622936 Chechen
    0.07159875 Tajik_Yagnobi
    0.07320008 Ingushian
    0.07511165 Kumyk
    0.07959966 Balkar
    0.08038174 Cherkes
    0.08165182 Kabardin
    0.08217364 Adygei
    0.08244400 Circassian
    0.08377939 Azeri_Dagestan
    0.08386010 Karachay
    0.08759020 Abazin
    0.08839288 Tajik_Rushan
    0.08879639 North_Ossetian
    0.08910365 Turkish_Deliorman
    0.09334965 Ossetian
    0.09341787 Turkish_Istanbul
    0.09465408 Turkish_B
    0.09569856 Turkish_Rumeli


    Ancient distances:

     

    Distance to: IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA:I4243
    0.03673843 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o
    0.05041009 TKM_IA
    0.05397311 KAZ_Katon_Karagay_LBA
    0.05926825 RUS_Kubano-Tersk_Late
    0.06261399 RUS_Alan_MA
    0.06461346 Saka_Tian_Shan_o
    0.06609359 Yamnaya_BGR
    0.07000307 ARM_LBA
    0.07072815 ARM_MBA
    0.07527659 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o2
    0.07704640 TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA
    0.07711208 RUS_Steppe_Maykop_o
    0.07983723 ARM_Lchashen_MBA
    0.07986583 KAZ_Turk_o
    0.08029325 HUN_Prescythian_IA
    0.08051230 Sarmatian_KAZ
    0.08164184 Scythian_UKR
    0.08164828 UZB_Kokcha_BA
    0.08262134 TJK_Ksirov_H_Kushan
    0.08300930 KAZ_Kangju
    0.08456124 DNK_Gjerrild_SGC_low_res
    0.08551680 UKR_MBA
    0.08585089 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA_o
    0.08606103 Saka_Kazakh_steppe_o2
    0.08669391 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_contam


    Target: IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA:I4243
    Distance: 2.2903% / 0.02290269 | ADC: 0.5x RC
    44.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan
    32.6 RUS_Catacomb
    22.6 RUS_Petrovka_MLBA
    0.6 Kura-Araxes_RUS_Velikent

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheharslantogino View Post
    IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA:I4243,0.113823,0.117801,-0.003394,0.034884,-0.020927,0.019801,0.00893,0.000692,-0.045813,-0.036265,0.012017,0.007643,-0.004162,-0.012248,0.019815,0.001193,-0.007432,0.00038,-0.004902,0.002751,-0.000749,-0.00371,0.001356,0.005061,0.000958

    Is this sample important for modern day Iranian ethnogenesis?

    Modern distances:

     

    Distance to: IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA:I4243
    0.04331956 Kaitag
    0.04571563 Avar
    0.04616327 Darginian
    0.04814738 Kubachinian
    0.04864094 Tabasaran
    0.04886003 Lak
    0.06622936 Chechen
    0.07159875 Tajik_Yagnobi
    0.07320008 Ingushian
    0.07511165 Kumyk
    0.07959966 Balkar
    0.08038174 Cherkes
    0.08165182 Kabardin
    0.08217364 Adygei
    0.08244400 Circassian
    0.08377939 Azeri_Dagestan
    0.08386010 Karachay
    0.08759020 Abazin
    0.08839288 Tajik_Rushan
    0.08879639 North_Ossetian
    0.08910365 Turkish_Deliorman
    0.09334965 Ossetian
    0.09341787 Turkish_Istanbul
    0.09465408 Turkish_B
    0.09569856 Turkish_Rumeli


    Ancient distances:

     

    Distance to: IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA:I4243
    0.03673843 Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o
    0.05041009 TKM_IA
    0.05397311 KAZ_Katon_Karagay_LBA
    0.05926825 RUS_Kubano-Tersk_Late
    0.06261399 RUS_Alan_MA
    0.06461346 Saka_Tian_Shan_o
    0.06609359 Yamnaya_BGR
    0.07000307 ARM_LBA
    0.07072815 ARM_MBA
    0.07527659 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA_o2
    0.07704640 TJK_Dashti_Kozy_BA
    0.07711208 RUS_Steppe_Maykop_o
    0.07983723 ARM_Lchashen_MBA
    0.07986583 KAZ_Turk_o
    0.08029325 HUN_Prescythian_IA
    0.08051230 Sarmatian_KAZ
    0.08164184 Scythian_UKR
    0.08164828 UZB_Kokcha_BA
    0.08262134 TJK_Ksirov_H_Kushan
    0.08300930 KAZ_Kangju
    0.08456124 DNK_Gjerrild_SGC_low_res
    0.08551680 UKR_MBA
    0.08585089 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA_o
    0.08606103 Saka_Kazakh_steppe_o2
    0.08669391 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_contam


    Target: IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA:I4243
    Distance: 2.2903% / 0.02290269 | ADC: 0.5x RC
    44.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan
    32.6 RUS_Catacomb
    22.6 RUS_Petrovka_MLBA
    0.6 Kura-Araxes_RUS_Velikent
    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/...ions-into.html
     

    [ { "distance": "1.69",
    "sample": "Kapisa-Dad (Kapisa)",
    "Khatri-Kohistani-Sindhi-Kamboj": 99.2,
    "Kurdish-Persian": 0.4,
    "Ju hoan": 0.4,},

    { "distance": "1.61",
    "sample": "Kapisa (Kapisa)",
    "Khatri-Kohistani-Sindhi-Kamboj": 94.8,
    "Kurdish-Persian": 0.6,
    "Ju hoan": 0.6,
    "Gupta": 4 },

    { "distance": "2.38",
    "sample":"Kapisa-Mom (Kapisa)",
    "Khatri-Kohistani-Sindhi-Kamboj": 89.4,
    "Kurdish-Persian": 3.4,
    "Gupta": 7.2 } ]

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    It’s a good thing I2327 has been relabeled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheharslantogino View Post
    Is this sample important for modern day Iranian ethnogenesis?
    No and yes.
    He was probably not an Iranic speaker.
    Bronze Age Hajji Firuz is basically yet another Trialeti/Kura Araxes sample.
    The Bronze Age Trialeti samples are similar to their Chalcolithic Kura Araxes ancestors, except they have significant Steppe-like admixture.

    I think BA_HajjiFiruz is important because it explains the Steppe-like admixture among Assyrians, and the elevated Steppe-like admixture among Kurds and Azerbaijanis in comparison with their Iranic neighbors to the south and east, who are geographically closer to proto-IndoIranians.

    We have two Iron Age samples from the same area; F38_Hasanlu and IA_HajjiFiruz.

    IA_HajjiFiruz = Bronze Age Hajji Firuz + Chalcolithic Seh Gabi(mid Zagros)
    F38_Hasanlu = Bronze Age Hajji Firuz + Chalcolithic Hajji Firuz(north Zagros)

    If you combine the Hasanlu and IA Hajji Firuz samples and add in a slight proto-Iranian Turkmenistan_IA then you get a modern NW Iranian result - although Hasanlu F38 is already very close.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MLSK View Post
    No and yes.
    He was probably not an Iranic speaker.
    Bronze Age Hajji Firuz is basically yet another Trialeti/Kura Araxes sample.
    The Bronze Age Trialeti samples are similar to their Chalcolithic Kura Araxes ancestors, except they have significant Steppe-like admixture.

    I think BA_HajjiFiruz is important because it explains the Steppe-like admixture among Assyrians, and the elevated Steppe-like admixture among Kurds and Azerbaijanis in comparison with their Iranic neighbors to the south and east, who are geographically closer to proto-IndoIranians.

    We have two Iron Age samples from the same area; F38_Hasanlu and IA_HajjiFiruz.

    IA_HajjiFiruz = Bronze Age Hajji Firuz + Chalcolithic Seh Gabi(mid Zagros)
    F38_Hasanlu = Bronze Age Hajji Firuz + Chalcolithic Hajji Firuz(north Zagros)

    If you combine the Hasanlu and IA Hajji Firuz samples and add in a slight proto-Iranian Turkmenistan_IA then you get a modern NW Iranian result - although Hasanlu F38 is already very close.
    A couple of points: Hajji Firuz BA seems to be substantially more steppe(around 2X as much) as the middle and late bronze age Armenian samples. So I don't think it's part of the same culture or if it is, it's an outlier.

     
    Target: ARM_MBA:RISE423
    Distance: 2.6828% / 0.02682765
    37.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
    30.8 Kura-Araxes
    17.8 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
    13.8 RUS_Catacomb

    Target: ARM_MBA:I1656
    Distance: 1.2366% / 0.01236612
    65.6 Kura-Araxes
    22.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
    6.8 TKM_Gonur1_BA
    3.6 RUS_Catacomb
    2.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C

    Target: ARM_Lchashen_MBAA35
    Distance: 2.3941% / 0.02394146
    39.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
    36.0 Kura-Araxes
    18.8 RUS_Catacomb
    5.8 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA

    Target: ARM_Lchashen_MBAA31
    Distance: 2.1555% / 0.02155477
    43.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
    24.4 Kura-Araxes
    19.4 RUS_Catacomb
    10.4 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
    2.6 TKM_Gonur1_BA

    Target: ARM_LBA:RISE412
    Distance: 3.6312% / 0.03631161
    42.8 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
    30.2 Kura-Araxes
    22.2 RUS_Catacomb
    4.8 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA

    Target: ARM_LBA:RISE407
    Distance: 2.3412% / 0.02341178
    54.0 Kura-Araxes
    29.2 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
    8.0 RUS_Catacomb
    5.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
    3.4 TKM_Gonur1_BA

    Target: ARM_LBA:RISE397
    Distance: 3.2405% / 0.03240457
    39.6 Kura-Araxes
    28.4 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
    25.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
    6.8 TKM_Gonur1_BA

    Target: IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA:I4243
    Distance: 1.3580% / 0.01357951
    32.4 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
    26.0 Kura-Araxes
    25.4 RUS_Catacomb
    12.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
    3.8 TKM_Gonur1_BA


    As for Kurds and Azeris being more steppe rich than populations to the east, this does not seem to be the case. There is a general steppe cline in Iran going from SW to NE so the Persians to the east should have just as much if not steppe compared to Kurds and Azeris. The Lurs to the south may be slightly less steppe.

    I do think it's likely that the sample isn't an Indo-Iranian speaker due to the lack of noticeable BMAC and the fact that it doesn't strongly prefer Sintashta over Catacomb.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    A couple of points: Hajji Firuz BA seems to be substantially more steppe(around 2X as much) as the middle and late bronze age Armenian samples. So I don't think it's part of the same culture or if it is, it's an outlier.
    You're right, it has substantially more steppe. I must've been tricked by a bad proxy because the ones I used only showed slightly more steppe.

    It doesn't change the overall point though. Actually, it makes perfect sense historically that it would score substantially more Yamnaya.
    The steppe-rich Hajji Firuzian has been carbon-dated to 2465-2286 calBCE.
    That makes it up to over 1,000 years older than the middle and late BA samples you compared it to - and only a few centuries younger than the old Kura Araxes.
    A very early BA Trialeti sample, a newcomer who was genetically out of place in it's region, yet to mix with native Zagros people.

    The Trialeti culture has strong connections with Yamnaya/Kurgan, and there are signs they reached all the way down to modern-day Iraq and Iran.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triale...ks.google.ca-7 (yes it's Wiki, but they list sources)

    screenshot-*************************-2021.06.29-20_02_18.png

    By Iron Age, the Yamnaya-like ancestry in the Urmia area has been quartered, but what's interesting is that both of them are R-L23, just like the Bronze Age man.
    And notice how the Bronze Age Hajji Firuzian prefers Kura Araxes over Chalcholithic Zagros(HF), but also over Ch Arslantepe, which suggests his ancestors took the Caucasus route, rather than Anatolia or Iran.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    As for Kurds and Azeris being more steppe rich than populations to the east, this does not seem to be the case. There is a general steppe cline in Iran going from SW to NE so the Persians to the east should have just as much if not steppe compared to Kurds and Azeris. The Lurs to the south may be slightly less steppe.
    I'm comparing them to their nearest neighbors.
    As you said, there's a trend of increasing Steppe the closer you get to Central Asia, or Sintashta, which is why I think the high North Euro scores among Kurds and Azerbaijanis is trend-breaking.
    Dodecad K12b results, sorted by North Euro score
    screenshot-**********************-2021.06.30-14_10_52.png

    Why would Kurds score almost twice as much North Euro as the Lors, considering the latter's proximity to Persepolis?
    Why would Azerbaijanis score higher North Euro than Mazandaranis who are far closer to Turkmenistan?
    The Talysh as well?
    I couldn't find a Gilan average, but the results that I've seen from Gilani were usually somewhere in between the Talysh and Mazandaranis - just like their position on the map.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by MLSK; 06-30-2021 at 12:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MLSK View Post
    You're right, it has substantially more steppe. I must've been tricked by a bad proxy because the ones I used only showed slightly more steppe.

    It doesn't change the overall point though. Actually, it makes perfect sense historically that it would score substantially more Yamnaya.
    The steppe-rich Hajji Firuzian has been carbon-dated to 2465-2286 calBCE.
    That makes it up to over 1,000 years older than the middle and late BA samples you compared it to - and only a few centuries younger than the old Kura Araxes.
    A very early BA Trialeti sample, a newcomer who was genetically out of place in it's region, yet to mix with native Zagros people.

    The Trialeti culture has strong connections with Yamnaya/Kurgan, and there are signs they reached all the way down to modern-day Iraq and Iran.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triale...ks.google.ca-7 (yes it's Wiki, but they list sources)

    screenshot-*************************-2021.06.29-20_02_18.png

    By Iron Age, the Yamnaya-like ancestry in the Urmia area has been quartered, but what's interesting is that both of them are R-L23, just like the Bronze Age man.
    And notice how the Bronze Age Hajji Firuzian prefers Kura Araxes over Chalcholithic Zagros(HF), but also over Ch Arslantepe, which suggests his ancestors took the Caucasus route, rather than Anatolia or Iran.



    I'm comparing them to their nearest neighbors.
    As you said, there's a trend of increasing Steppe the closer you get to Central Asia, or Sintashta, which is why I think the high North Euro scores among Kurds and Azerbaijanis is trend-breaking.
    Dodecad K12b results, sorted by North Euro score
    screenshot-**********************-2021.06.30-14_10_52.png

    Why would Kurds score almost twice as much North Euro as the Lors, considering the latter's proximity to Persepolis?
    Why would Azerbaijanis score higher North Euro than Mazandaranis who are far closer to Turkmenistan?
    The Talysh as well?
    I couldn't find a Gilan average, but the results that I've seen from Gilani were usually somewhere in between the Talysh and Mazandaranis - just like their position on the map.

    I seriously would not use gedmatch as the end all be all for steppe admixture. Ancient components don’t necessarily line up that way. If you were to use a proper G25 model then you would see that Iranians from central Iran(maybe excluding Mazandaranis) score just as much if not more steppe than Azeris and Kurds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynic View Post
    I seriously would not use gedmatch as the end all be all for steppe admixture. Ancient components don’t necessarily line up that way. If you were to use a proper G25 model then you would see that Iranians from central Iran(maybe excluding Mazandaranis) score just as much if not more steppe than Azeris and Kurds.
    Agree on the superiority of G25, but Gedmatch has far more available samples, and more specific.
    I've seen Dodecad k12b results from pretty much every province of Iran.
    But G25? They have "Kurdish", where they've grouped together Lur-like Feyli results, Arab-admixed Iraqi Kurds and so on. I think "Ezid" is a better proxy for Northern Iranian Kurds, although some of the Yezidi/Ezid samples show a Semitic and/or Turkic admixture, which is weird considering the strict endogamy practiced by the group.

    They have Persian, Zoroastrian, Seyyed, Bandari, Fars, Mazandarani, and Lurs.
    "Persian" and "Seyyed" don't specify province. "Zoroastrian" probably refers to Yazd and Kerman, which is not neighboring any Azeri or Kurdish-majority province. Neither do Bandaris.
    Mazandarani and Lurs will score lower Yamnaya/Steppe/EEHG than "Ezid" no matter which ancient sample you use as source.
    Fars' Steppe is more or less on par with Yezidis' - probably slightly more for Fars, but it's shocking that it's even close.

    Unfortunately there isn't any known Isfahani or Markazi sample on G25.

    Still, the Mazandarani and Lur scores on G25 are enough to raise some eyebrows. Why would Kurds generally score higher Yamnaya than Lurs? Aren't they both Zagros mountain dwellers? The Lur area is even more Eastern than the Kurd area.
    Or what about the Mazandaranis? They're right next to the Turkmens who are extremely Steppe-rich.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MLSK View Post
    Agree on the superiority of G25, but Gedmatch has far more available samples, and more specific.
    I've seen Dodecad k12b results from pretty much every province of Iran.
    But G25? They have "Kurdish", where they've grouped together Lur-like Feyli results, Arab-admixed Iraqi Kurds and so on. I think "Ezid" is a better proxy for Northern Iranian Kurds, although some of the Yezidi/Ezid samples show a Semitic and/or Turkic admixture, which is weird considering the strict endogamy practiced by the group.

    They have Persian, Zoroastrian, Seyyed, Bandari, Fars, Mazandarani, and Lurs.
    "Persian" and "Seyyed" don't specify province. "Zoroastrian" probably refers to Yazd and Kerman, which is not neighboring any Azeri or Kurdish-majority province. Neither do Bandaris.
    Mazandarani and Lurs will score lower Yamnaya/Steppe/EEHG than "Ezid" no matter which ancient sample you use as source.
    Fars' Steppe is more or less on par with Yezidis' - probably slightly more for Fars, but it's shocking that it's even close.

    Unfortunately there isn't any known Isfahani or Markazi sample on G25.

    Still, the Mazandarani and Lur scores on G25 are enough to raise some eyebrows. Why would Kurds generally score higher Yamnaya than Lurs? Aren't they both Zagros mountain dwellers? The Lur area is even more Eastern than the Kurd area.
    Or what about the Mazandaranis? They're right next to the Turkmens who are extremely Steppe-rich.
    We need more specificity for the Persian samples, I agree. But given that the Persian average on the Vahaduo sheet is extremely close to Iranians from Fars and likewise for the Seyyeds, it can be reasonably inferred that most or all of those Persian/Seyyed come from the western half of Iran ie Esfahan, Markazi, Hamadan, Tehran, Qom, etc.

    The Mazandaranis have weird and atypical genetics if the samples we've seen so far are representative of the province as a whole. They have higher Iran_N at the expense of all other components i.e. their Levant/ANF, South Asian, steppe, and east Asian affinities are depressed compared to other Iranians. This is probably because of the remoteness of Mazandaran province with its thick rainforests which partially insulated the population from gene flow from the east and west.

    Lurs having less steppe than Kurds and Ezidis makes sense. As I said before, there appears to be a SW to NE cline with regard to steppe ancestry in Iran with it being lower in the former and higher in the latter. Lurs are at the very SW edge of the Iranian plateau and predictably have the lowest steppe of all populations in western Iran aside from Khuzestani Arabs. Kurds, Azeri, and Yezidi are located further north-their steppe is unsurprisingly higher. But it's not higher than north-central Persians and especially not Khorasanis.

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